am_ 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2013 i'm someone who doesn't pug anymore but is very interested in comp tf2 i played a few afa pugs in june last year one thing that turned me off of pugs though was this time when cuteman (cuteboy at the time) told me to switch from demo so that he could demo in the middle of an afapug because i was too shit because apparently winning an afa pug was way more important than letting a newbie learn to play arguably the hardest class in the game, wow i'm not going to make any judgments on his character now because that was 17 months ago but that's just my personal reason why i didn't bother continuing to pug (other than the general reasons eg. time energy blah), because the people who were directly above the skill class (read: div3) and the ones dominating the afa pugs were way too focused on winning rather than the actual game play and were in general not exactly willing to make a non-toxic learning environment qjyap quit in the middle of a pug because he was pissed that xierra did not improve his medic 15 minutes into a pug and stopped responding to his "advice" rofl again all these stories are quite dated and i'm almost 100% sure that the environment of pugs has changed since then but this is just another potential turnoff to newbies wanting to improve and go further in asian comp tf2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cuteboyyy 14 Report post Posted November 6, 2013 I apologise back then as i already mentioned, i can be ragey in the past which i admit but people do change don't they? As much as i am trying not to be as ragey as compared to the past, i was in the wrong to take away your demoman slots because i think you are too shit , given that its AFA and its the place for learning. (I dont remember who you are , but i do remember i definitely did 1 of those things) Its unfortunate that you left the competitive scene because of the toxic environment. I too experience the same shit (way worst) last time when i came in as a newbie. Why cant you do the same? Yes, i admit that i am one of the players that are too focused in winning pug (***which i addressed on my first post that it shouldn't be the case and it should be a learning ground for newer players***). <= POINT re-emphasised by am_ TBH, the environment of pugs haven't change since 17 months ago imo. Anyone can come and post anything wrong that i did in the past , go ahead, i wont stop you. I dare to admit it. Really, if pug is all about individual game play and focus on winning, its never a learning ground in the first place. In order to change that, it takes the ENTIRE community to do it pro-actively rather than forcing these newer players into mumble. If they feel that the community is welcoming and non-toxic, they will definitely get in mumble without being asked and laugh and talk cock sing song. The current pug status : 1) Can't feel the bond among all the players (cliques everywhere) 2) Newer players not taking initiatives to reach out for assistance. 3) Old players should pro-actively make friends with newer players to make them feel welcoming. **To note : Please don't pinned everything on the admins and older players, we are humans after all, it takes 2 hand to clap. If we try but you newer players don't even try, how? how? How to improve? ** ***To note the previous point : In order for that to happen, the way of approach by the older players reaching out to the newer players can be changed. (To older players : Not making yourself seem so hostile) It seems like the newer players can't talk criticism and get rage at when making mistakes. (Prove me wrong) We can be nice and helpful, ragey at times, but its a 2 way thing you see. *** 4) Pug is the same as before. Just gather in mumble at AFL PUG , go to red or blue (your respective team) and try to comm with your teammates and pug at the same time, ask where is your mistakes and bla bla bla, pug and learn at the same time? Try, i said try. **I am still waiting for newer players that are trying the competitive scene to ADD me and ask for scrim only if i am available. I am waiting for both older players and newer players to pro-actively form a mix according to their level and maybe asking me so that i can help out at the same time. I am waiting for the time when i feel that pug is more of a learning ground rather than individual players playing their own game just wanting to win the game or going sniper 24/7 just to have fun. Right now, can't see it .** **AND PLEASE, we are humans after all, don't expect so much from the admins and the older players. We have commitment outside as well.** Correct me if i am wrong. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
am_ 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2013 Its unfortunate that you left the competitive scene because of the toxic environment. I too experience the same shit (way worst) last time when i came in as a newbie. Why cant you do the same? it wasn't toxic just because of the attitude and flaming, which is why i talked about those incidents instead of being shouted at which happened to me enough it was the kind of toxic that ruined the actual games (couldn't play the class i wanted to learn, had one member of my team leave in the middle of the game) you MUST go to public server or mge to get your dm skills right and also the sensing of the game before coming here coupled with this, and other factors, i decided it just wasn't the time for me to get into comp tf2 and went back to pubs but getting back on topic, flaming is the most effective way to criticise someone simply because people are more likely to hear flaming than gentle-voiced constructive advice if anyone thinks they're entitled to being talked to nicely, well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iridescentFUZZ 178 Report post Posted November 6, 2013 Despite being inclined to just sit on the sidelines and watch the drama unfold, I've finally decided to weigh in on this issue after having thought about it for a while; now that I actually have something to add to the discussion. Progress of the competitive scene being the issue, the two key things contributing to this progress are positive player quality and positive player quantity. I will attempt to avoid getting into a debate on which is more important, but I would say that player quantity is a precursor to player quality. Whether a very small, highly competitive community or a large playerbase with big skill-gaps between teams/divisions is preferred is another question entirely. That aside, player quantity increase comes primarily from new players entering the scene, and that in turn is significantly affected by the image a competitive scene creates of itself. At a more complex level, positive player quality comes from mentoring, team-building and competitive events, among other things. However, the most basic pre-requisite for positive player quality is player retention. How will players improve if you're not retaining players that join the community? While player retention is not affected much by how a competitive scene looks from the outside, it is affected by the nature of a competitive scene, whether that nature is also represented in an outwardly fashion or not. Summing up, the influx of new players, and player retention are the two key issues that need to be addressed for progress. Here comes the crux of the issue; the nature of a competitive scene. You want better quality players? More players? Then work on creating a good outward image for the Asian competitive scene, and work on not actively driving people away once they've joined the competitive scene and would like to be considered a part of it. As the reddit thread has shown, a lot of potential new-comers see AsiaFortress in a very negative light. While this could simply be vocal minorities spreading vitriol, lack of exposure of the complainants to our competitive scene, or it could be that their complaints hold genuine weight, I think getting into that debate is completely redundant. If you want new players to even dip their toes in the frigid body of water that is the Asian competitive scene, you have to make it seem like a hot spring(short term change), while at the same time attempting to make the competitive scene a better place in terms of player retention(long term change). To continue in the vein of freyja's post, would it kill you to simply be nice, or at the very least neutral? No matter what you do, where you go in life, you're going to run into people that annoy you whether it is because they're unpleasant, naive, ignorant or simply have personalities that clash with yours. You can't yell at or insult every person that annoys you IRL, so why let the anonymity of the internet change that? Veterans want newer players to change the way they approach and see the game while newer players want veterans to stop being unnecessarily vitriolic. Here's (what I hope is) an eye-opener; the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Why should you as a newbie ignore the advice of every other veteran because you've had a few bad experiences? Why should you as a veteran rage at and insult a newbie because of a few newbies that occasionally ruin PuGs? As to the reasoning behind rage/insults/administrative-action directed at players(new or not), I find the accusation of double standards to be spot on. Kicks/bans being handed out for mere name-calling? Yes, name calling; not even racial/sexual/bigoted slurs. Moving onto the kind of abuse thrown around within the community, between veterans and new players alike; what some people consider trash-talk or friendly banter, others consider offensive. Maybe exercise a little restraint and judgement before spouting inane, incessant trash at people. Like someone mentioned, rage is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't see anything wrong with a veteran getting annoyed with a new player for something stupid they did, provided that rage is not unnecessarily offensive, and the rage is followed up by constructive advice. If you're being condescending, you're not doing it right. Last, I'm going to mention the attitude displayed by a number of players, some newbies, some veterans at the highest level; the attitude that, "The teams are stacked, so I'm going to sub out/offclass/screw around till the PuG is over". Some of those players then have the audacity to complain about the quality of games or the scene as a whole. It's not realistic to expect every single person to play super-serious every single PuG they play, but what you sow is what you reap. To name a few of the good examples in this community, we have summer, teal, bran, 2ragic, madman, js and rufus. Those are the kind of people all of you should be striving to emulate. And no, there's no TL;DR, sorry. 8 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haluuuuu 56 Report post Posted November 6, 2013 ***personal message to fuzz*** ok our love is reaffirmed dont worry guys i got curry we clarified the misunderstanding between us and we r gd couples now <3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- but guys lets face it, new players not having an appropriate attitude is quite a serious issue nowadays and by attitude i am referring to the attitude of taking up new things/suggestions/cristism/etc u come to a pug, expect everyone spoonfeed u? wat? insert youcametothewrongfuckingneighbourhood.jpg pls, once again, dont take the existing things for granted theres this website asiafortress.com, with nicely divided sub-sessions of different topics do u expect me to spoonfeed u the URL link of a particular post/thread/article/guide? no ask me this, ask me that, im not ur maid at home sorry pls, at least get urself ur own initiative to learn something, be open to wt others say to u i feel pretty amazed and delighted when there is this guy who approached me for mentoring. he took his own initiative to provide his own pov demos for review, and asked a lot of questions to clarify his doubts ^ we need more newbies like this in our community Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misfit 42 Report post Posted November 6, 2013 PSS. MISFIT IS ALSO NOT VERY TALL WALAO PUZZ WHY DRAG MY NAME HERE. YOU MISS ME RIGHT :D :D 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Madman 185 Report post Posted November 6, 2013 Tale as old as time Tune as old as song Bitter sweet and strange Finding you can change Learning you were wrong Certain as the sun Rising in the east http://www.lostgarden.com/2009/11/testosterone-and-competitive-play.html?m=1 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131802/glory_and_shame_powerful_.php Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SMB 59 Report post Posted November 6, 2013 I guess some of the foreigners like creep or bongera are usually quite open to scrimming? I've asked them as late as 11 on fri/sat nights and they agreed... Also don't bother with the Australians unless you know the really friendly ones (def not termo or kaki), even then it's impossible to get a game because of the 3 hour time difference Fk i'm available EVERY friday and usually saturday nights if you're really keen we can set up weeklies Next week cannot though got field camp which includes ex wanderer fff i hate that termo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teddybar. 54 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 So, maybe try being nice and helpful, point out mistakes, but if they try stepping over your head or just being straight up obnoxious then you give them your mandingo penis and get into their anus Fucking mandingo bit had me laughing for a good 5 minutes. Django~~~~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
qjyap 29 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 I miss crimsonfirebird where are you crimsonfirebird????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aclockworkgrape 3 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 I miss crimsonfirebird where are you crimsonfirebird????? he's in uni now studying some hardcore physics shit, miss him 2 man much love #cutforcrimsonfirebird crimson is someone noone could ever dislike i feel hehe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shounic 143 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 Firebird approached tf2 with such eunthusiasm and eye for technical details, he really was a man to remember. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan 135 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 the last PS got me. HOW DID YOU KNOW I WAS THINKING THAT IT WAS HIM CHRIS?! PSYCHIC! ONE DOES NOT USE REAL NAMES IN ONLINE FORUMS PLEASE 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan 135 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 HOWEVER , IF YOU ARE THE KIND OF PLAYER THAT SHOWS ATTITUDE , COME IN FK AROUND , LEAVE THE GAME BECAUS3 YOU CANT HANDLE , just leave afl. THATS ME to veterans: try to be more accommodating bah, i mean i know some of you have really tried your best in helping (summer, fuzz) - keep it up yeah? if the newer players really don't wanna listen, then just ignore i guess, no use raging! need herbal tea afterwards, now very expensive. Why is my name not mentioned host a LAN and fite him irl YOU should really be the last person to challenge anyone to a fight cute little man Tbh bran , my view of improving is to have someone better than me so that i can sell how bad i am which at this point i already knoe after playing in season 7. Really, right now is the repeat of SCRT vs all stars .............. SCRT vs all stars. I am not saying my team is great by citing that example , me and my team have rooms for improvement and we all are in the process of learning. There arent really enough high level teams to scrim locally except one : Secret Stars. I tried asking ks, mej , go aussie find some good players to know them as a friend but usually none of them want to play because they know ITS A WASTE OF THEIR TIME AND I KNOW IT I KNOW ITS A ROLL. That is how things stagnate. We need flexibility in the opponents we against. Its really the same old players in "Secret Star" be in scrim or mix scrim. Please no more comparisons to All Stars or Scrts. Very different levels. But i like you you are a swell guy. You can always play vs godsofgodsofgodsofgods. We are very good when drunk. PS. I just realised there is a multiquote button 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan 135 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 Despite being inclined to just sit on the sidelines and watch the drama unfold, I've finally decided to weigh in on this issue after having thought about it for a while; now that I actually have something to add to the discussion. Progress of the competitive scene being the issue, the two key things contributing to this progress are positive player quality and positive player quantity. I will attempt to avoid getting into a debate on which is more important, but I would say that player quantity is a precursor to player quality. Whether a very small, highly competitive community or a large playerbase with big skill-gaps between teams/divisions is preferred is another question entirely. That aside, player quantity increase comes primarily from new players entering the scene, and that in turn is significantly affected by the image a competitive scene creates of itself. At a more complex level, positive player quality comes from mentoring, team-building and competitive events, among other things. However, the most basic pre-requisite for positive player quality is player retention. How will players improve if you're not retaining players that join the community? While player retention is not affected much by how a competitive scene looks from the outside, it is affected by the nature of a competitive scene, whether that nature is also represented in an outwardly fashion or not. Summing up, the influx of new players, and player retention are the two key issues that need to be addressed for progress. Here comes the crux of the issue; the nature of a competitive scene. You want better quality players? More players? Then work on creating a good outward image for the Asian competitive scene, and work on not actively driving people away once they've joined the competitive scene and would like to be considered a part of it. As the reddit thread has shown, a lot of potential new-comers see AsiaFortress in a very negative light. While this could simply be vocal minorities spreading vitriol, lack of exposure of the complainants to our competitive scene, or it could be that their complaints hold genuine weight, I think getting into that debate is completely redundant. If you want new players to even dip their toes in the frigid body of water that is the Asian competitive scene, you have to make it seem like a hot spring(short term change), while at the same time attempting to make the competitive scene a better place in terms of player retention(long term change). To continue in the vein of freyja's post, would it kill you to simply be nice, or at the very least neutral? No matter what you do, where you go in life, you're going to run into people that annoy you whether it is because they're unpleasant, naive, ignorant or simply have personalities that clash with yours. You can't yell at or insult every person that annoys you IRL, so why let the anonymity of the internet change that? Veterans want newer players to change the way they approach and see the game while newer players want veterans to stop being unnecessarily vitriolic. Here's (what I hope is) an eye-opener; the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Why should you as a newbie ignore the advice of every other veteran because you've had a few bad experiences? Why should you as a veteran rage at and insult a newbie because of a few newbies that occasionally ruin PuGs? As to the reasoning behind rage/insults/administrative-action directed at players(new or not), I find the accusation of double standards to be spot on. Kicks/bans being handed out for mere name-calling? Yes, name calling; not even racial/sexual/bigoted slurs. Moving onto the kind of abuse thrown around within the community, between veterans and new players alike; what some people consider trash-talk or friendly banter, others consider offensive. Maybe exercise a little restraint and judgement before spouting inane, incessant trash at people. Like someone mentioned, rage is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't see anything wrong with a veteran getting annoyed with a new player for something stupid they did, provided that rage is not unnecessarily offensive, and the rage is followed up by constructive advice. If you're being condescending, you're not doing it right. Last, I'm going to mention the attitude displayed by a number of players, some newbies, some veterans at the highest level; the attitude that, "The teams are stacked, so I'm going to sub out/offclass/screw around till the PuG is over". Some of those players then have the audacity to complain about the quality of games or the scene as a whole. It's not realistic to expect every single person to play super-serious every single PuG they play, but what you sow is what you reap. To name a few of the good examples in this community, we have summer, teal, bran, 2ragic, madman, js and rufus. Those are the kind of people all of you should be striving to emulate. And no, there's no TL;DR, sorry. BASICALLY WHAT FUZZ IS SAYING IS STOP PLAYERS FROM LEAVING. HE IS RIGHT! Want to know why some of the most respected players left? (Including myself) Bad administrators. Bias. Unfairness. ( THE UNFAIR BANNING OF MY TEAM FROM AFL FOR A PERSONAL GRUDGE RATHER THEN ANY LOGICAL REASON. YES I HAVE CHATLOGS. THIS WILL PROBABLY GET DELETED) WALAO PUZZ WHY DRAG MY NAME HERE. YOU MISS ME RIGHT :D :D Thumbs up marly! Tale as old as time Tune as old as song Bitter sweet and strange Finding you can change Learning you were wrong Certain as the sun Rising in the east http://www.lostgarde...e-play.html?m=1 http://www.gamasutra...e_powerful_.php Shit bro you are always pure class PS. I have learnt how to use the multiquote button Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan 135 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 [–]Shounic 0 points 4 days ago Excuse me? There has been a lot of forum activity and admin back room work talking about this. If you haven't noticed a lot of us veterans have been busy improving the quality of our pugs... HAHAHAHAHAHHA SHOUNIC YOU VETERAN No hard feelings bro, me and spammah were the first to believe in you. keep the strange scatter we gave you close and think of us when you sleep. ( BUT STILL PLEASE DONT SAY YOU ARE A VETERAN) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan 135 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 IM PROBABLY GONNA GET BANNED LOVE YOU ALL On a more serious note I have to retype all this because I think i hit my post limit. I have been saying for well over a year to everyone that listen that the general administration and running of Asiafortress should be passed over to Fuzz. In all honesty despite the good natured ragging and insults that we usually throw at him, Fuzz is an outstanding member of this community. I sincerely feel that the work he has done thus far has gone unappreciated in part due to the nature of his ridiculous beard. However the aesthetics of his face should not take away anything to what he has given to this community. He is one of the most helpful veterans left and the only one I feel would be responsible enough to dig this community out of the sinkhole that it is currently in. Unknown to most, Fuzz is my personal mentor. He picked me out of a pug 3 months after I started to play Tf2 and gave me a chance in the competitive scene. I sincerely credit a portion of my amazing rise to fame from Div 3 to the REAL Div 1 in the space of a year. Likewise as my mentor and one of the founding players of the Allstars, his nurturing spirit groomed me to lead the Allstars to the amazing levels that we reached. ( Tharnos credits his personal development to me too) (as does summer) In short Please vote fuzz for king 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kol 73 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 typical singaporean to outsource to india haha 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SMB 59 Report post Posted November 7, 2013 IM PROBABLY GONNA GET BANNED LOVE YOU ALL On a more serious note I have to retype all this because I think i hit my post limit. I have been saying for well over a year to everyone that listen that the general administration and running of Asiafortress should be passed over to Fuzz. In all honesty despite the good natured ragging and insults that we usually throw at him, Fuzz is an outstanding member of this community. I sincerely feel that the work he has done thus far has gone unappreciated in part due to the nature of his ridiculous beard. However the aesthetics of his face should not take away anything to what he has given to this community. He is one of the most helpful veterans left and the only one I feel would be responsible enough to dig this community out of the sinkhole that it is currently in. Unknown to most, Fuzz is my personal mentor. He picked me out of a pug 3 months after I started to play Tf2 and gave me a chance in the competitive scene. I sincerely credit a portion of my amazing rise to fame from Div 3 to the REAL Div 1 in the space of a year. Likewise as my mentor and one of the founding players of the Allstars, his nurturing spirit groomed me to lead the Allstars to the amazing levels that we reached. ( Tharnos credits his personal development to me too) (as does summer) In short Please vote fuzz for king indianfortress.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shounic 143 Report post Posted November 8, 2013 @puzzled: <3 @indiafortress: who can forget the amazing players like airshot and pizzawow pls you missed them out 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heretotroll 10 Report post Posted November 8, 2013 to whoever has been treated shittily when they were noobs and then became pro or whatever now, if you've been treated like shit and felt bad about it, you could probably understand the plight of the guys who you're bullying right? why would you want to put them through that if its now in your hands to decide how these new guys are treated? cause that's pretty stupid and not great for the community. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heretotroll 10 Report post Posted November 8, 2013 IM PROBABLY GONNA GET BANNED LOVE YOU ALL On a more serious note I have to retype all this because I think i hit my post limit. I have been saying for well over a year to everyone that listen that the general administration and running of Asiafortress should be passed over to Fuzz. In all honesty despite the good natured ragging and insults that we usually throw at him, Fuzz is an outstanding member of this community. I sincerely feel that the work he has done thus far has gone unappreciated in part due to the nature of his ridiculous beard. However the aesthetics of his face should not take away anything to what he has given to this community. He is one of the most helpful veterans left and the only one I feel would be responsible enough to dig this community out of the sinkhole that it is currently in. Unknown to most, Fuzz is my personal mentor. He picked me out of a pug 3 months after I started to play Tf2 and gave me a chance in the competitive scene. I sincerely credit a portion of my amazing rise to fame from Div 3 to the REAL Div 1 in the space of a year. Likewise as my mentor and one of the founding players of the Allstars, his nurturing spirit groomed me to lead the Allstars to the amazing levels that we reached. ( Tharnos credits his personal development to me too) (as does summer) In short Please vote fuzz for king also +100, least biased and very helpful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Summer 180 Report post Posted November 8, 2013 The funny thng is that when you re nice to people you get taken advantage of as misfit constantly reminds me. I can think of so many times it's happened from personal experience and real life that there are different ways to get desired behaviour from people 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HaXxorIzed 17 Report post Posted November 8, 2013 IM PROBABLY GONNA GET BANNED LOVE YOU ALL I don't care if you're right or wrong or purple with spots or a camel (like spammah), say this (even as a joke) and I understand people wanting to ban you. Iri is one of the best assets people arguing could change could possibly hope for, and banning those who post like this would be doing his cause a favour. There's a right and a wrong way to make an argument and a cause, and coming from about as close to an external observer as you are likely to get, the way you post is not the way to make it. Websites such as Teamliquid have a really good level of discussion with the community feeling safe to post unpopular/"dangerous" opinions because of the standards they demand of posters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites