Lower level pug?

[Otuzi 0]

Many times i played pug (8 actually) and i always see pubbers who want to play pug intimidated by big names like.. (some guys? :/) . and other pro players. my first game of pug, i remember getting : 1.flamed about how noob i was, 2. waiting 3 games before i could play even though i +1-ed when everyone did. [but my seventh and eight games were enjoyable, kudos to people like herp and xenon and catacylysmic who encouraged me even though i failed badly. i was thinking of the idea of a lower level pug, for pubbers to play yet not get dominated or flamed at by other pro-er people in real pugs. it will generally have the same rules as the normal pug, (same class limits and weapon bans). this could also be a start to introduce pubbers to the world of pug-ing. many-a-people dont play pug as they dont have the confidence, or scared they get flamed at by other users. So.. could this be a good idea?

:soldier:Ötzi™

[Summer 180]

Something else we've been considering: 2 separate pug servers, one strictly for lower level players and one normal one. Of course, the lower level one would be moderated and possibly overseen to ensure fairness and no regulars impersonating newbies just to get stomp pleasure. Also, players who are overseeing the games can give tips to players. But first, we have to see an increase in the number of new players entering the pugging scene, or this would be redundant.

 

P.s, Never pugged with you before. I HAVE THE FRIENDLIEST TEAM

[emir 10]

what benny said. we indeed have been considering putting this in place for awhile now.

 

but, there are a lot of foreseeable problems with the execution of this initiative. primarily, we probably would have some experienced players who wanna come in (maybe pretending to be f2p players) and ruin the low-level pugs because they can and because they have nothing better to do. sure, we could moderate and just kick these people who are there just to dominate everyone else.

 

second, and i think the bigger problem, is this: how do we differentiate between the 2 levels? who do we let into the lower level pug and who do we ban? sure, people who've never pugged before, definitely. but how long do we let people play in the lower level pug, before we tell them that it's time they moved into the higher one? 1 game? 4 games? 20 games? and what if they still haven't improved enough?

 

and lastly, there's definitely going to be some form of discrimination against these newer players by the more experienced players. don't deny it, you know it's characteristic of our community to hate on newbies and people who aren't very good at the game. we'd love to have more people join us in pugs, and maybe form scrim teams, so we could actually get healthy participation in tournaments, but that's not going to happen if everyone keeps thinking that our community needs to be exclusive and "for pros only".

 

don't get me wrong, we'd really love for this to happen; as a matter of fact this idea has been tossed around for months now, just that nothing's been actualised yet, i wonder why hmmm....

if anyone's got any ideas or suggestions to make this happen, please, by all means, tell us. with your help, we could make this actually happen and succeed.

[Otuzi 0]

yeah. thats nice. maybe we could advertise it or something? most pub-ing people dont know about pugs, or dont want to try it. so maybe some guys could do some scouting? or something. i know pug is for everyone, but i dont want to see really really noob people in pug servers. maybe i could help out? i know im not much but.. yeah.

 

p.s i dont pug regularly.. maybe thats why.

 

[yuko 46]

Many times i played pug (8 actually) and i always see pubbers who want to play pug intimidated by big names like.. (some guys? :/) . and other pro players. my first game of pug' date=' i remember getting : 1.flamed about how noob i was, 2. waiting 3 games before i could play even though i +1-ed when everyone did. [but my seventh and eight games were enjoyable, kudos to people like herp and xenon and [b']catacylysmic who encouraged me [/b]even though i failed badly. i was thinking of the idea of a lower level pug, for pubbers to play yet not get dominated or flamed at by other pro-er people in real pugs. it will generally have the same rules as the normal pug, (same class limits and weapon bans). this could also be a start to introduce pubbers to the world of pug-ing. many-a-people dont play pug as they dont have the confidence, or scared they get flamed at by other users. So.. could this be a good idea?

:soldier:Ötzi™

 

rare...but you're welcome

 

 

[Otuzi 0]

@emir oh.. i see. i doubt any of them would really do that. but in that case (like you said) we could kick them. but maybe we could introduce some better than pubbers yet noober then puggers (like me) to help and guide them. of course, when bringing them in we should also explain the rules to them to make sure they dont mess up the flow of gameplay.

 

second, differentiating between the 2 levels should be quite easy. if there is really not enough pug players like what benny said, i dont think there will be problems about the how long they can play part. we could give them their own time, when they think their good enough then they could move on. i feel the problem is not about the pro-er players, but rather the super duper noob ones. people who dont know how to play. passwording it is okay i guess.

 

yeah i know about the discrimination. i been through it many times. those who improved by a big amount could (and should :/) go on to the higher levels of pug and maybe even scrims. this pug server shouldnt have people dominating the entire enemy team.

 

me too. thats what i was thinking. i'd love to help of courseSmile

[deliaren 3]

Firstly, I think this will just create a rift between the community, between the two parts of this community and may possibly make that rift even bigger. We barely can even get pugs rolling on weekdays, and unless you can somehow massively encourage other pubbers into rolling into the pugging scene then this is not going to work.

 

Also, puggers have a tendency to stack on one server (example #20 with 25/25 people = 2 pugs and everyone stacks on one server)

 

Secondly, the moderation then must be done with an admin constantly monitoring the servers (unless someone magically implements the PSR system or any other rating system into the servers that rates the skills of each player) or you could classify the two sides, what defines a 'entry-level' pugger and a 'veteran' pugger, then deliberately ban the 'veteran' side from entering the 'entry-level' servers.

[Haruhi 0]

To be honest, ratings don't really mean much unless the algorithm behind it factors in intangible things like strategic plays and tactics for individual players. Otherwise, people will just simply aim to frag and dominate players to rake up ratings, rendering it pointless and inconclusive. To begin with, why not create a group for the relatively weaker puggers who are new, and appoint a couple few players to initiate pugs designed for such players. Unless there already exists such a group, which I apologise then for wasting seconds of your life reading this suggestion

[ding 2]

um another problem i forsee is that those on the "lower level" side might not get proper playing experience that playing with more skilled players bring. when these skilled players help instead of flame i found it very helpful. dividing people up will just remove instances where less experienced players can learn from more skillful players.

[natapon 124]

i like the lower level pug group idea.

[Pickled_Orange 0]

I think it's a pretty good idea for a lower level PUG group, it would certainly give newbies like me a means to slowly get the hang of things, since one of the more pressing issues is with newbies being flamed for being incompetent. This kind of kills off any interest they might have had before, especially since not everyone would want to stick around if all they're getting is flak for being new. The TF2masters competition this time around was an introduction to the competitive scene for pubbers(my team included), and I kind of feel that this is a good opportunity to actually get some new blood in.

[Otuzi 0]

um another problem i forsee is that those on the "lower level" side might not get proper playing experience that playing with more skilled players bring. when these skilled players help instead of flame i found it very helpful. dividing people up will just remove instances where less experienced players can learn from more skillful players.

 

i dont mean of totally banning ALL of the pug players. we could bring in some people who experienced pugs before to teach them how its like. we could also bring in pubstars i agree about the helping than flaming part. so i was thinking of pubstars. those who played enough tf2 to understand everything' date=' and who played maybe 1 or 2 games of pug to know the rules.[hr']

I think it's a pretty good idea for a lower level PUG group' date=' it would certainly give newbies like me a means to slowly get the hang of things, since one of the more pressing issues is with newbies being flamed for being incompetent. This kind of kills off any interest they might have had before, especially since not everyone would want to stick around if all they're getting is flak for being new. The TF2masters competition this time around was an introduction to the competitive scene for pubbers(my team included), and I kind of feel that this is a good opportunity to actually get some new blood in.

[/quote']

 

thanks. yeah that was what i am hoping for. the people we introduce to the lower level pug servers shouldnt have a ass attitude and flame at anyone in their team not putting in the amount of effort. im afraid of people who disobey the rules and go utility for the whole game. some of my friends were interested in joining masters yet (we) know that we wouldnt make it since we didnt have much experience playing 6v6. so, this could be really helpful to newer players who want to yet are scared to.

---

Firstly' date=' I think this will just create a rift between the community, between the two parts of this community and may possibly make that rift even bigger. We barely can even get pugs rolling on weekdays, and unless you can somehow massively encourage other pubbers into rolling into the pugging scene then this is not going to work.

 

Also, puggers have a tendency to stack on one server (example #20 with 25/25 people = 2 pugs and everyone stacks on one server)

 

Secondly, the moderation then must be done with an admin constantly monitoring the servers (unless someone magically implements the PSR system or any other rating system into the servers that rates the skills of each player) or you could classify the two sides, what defines a 'entry-level' pugger and a 'veteran' pugger, then deliberately ban the 'veteran' side from entering the 'entry-level' servers.

[/quote']

 

about the rift, i dont mean for the server to be called 'lower level pug server' its more of a training server. get what i mean? pugs rolling on weekday? usually after the announcement 'PUG starting in 20#' people will flock to the server. the problem is because the 'pug group' (no offense) is quite small. a small fraction of pubbers. so with the introduction of this new server, more pubbers can eventually join the 'pug group' the stacking isnt a problem.. if pugs are not announced to start, then the server usually has only 1 or 2 people. and 1 of them is asiafortresstv4.

 

hm.. about the moderation, we dont need an admin online all the time. either we have more admins that dont abuse their powers, or we schedule lower level pugs. announce it the same way normal pugs do. and maybe even broadcast over the e-club servers that these pugs are starting and these could be their chance. not many people know about pugs anyway. we can moniter it. if we see people who are dominating the entire enemy team, it could be possible that he is a veteran pugger or should be a normal pugger.

 

---

To be honest' date=' ratings don't really mean much unless the algorithm behind it factors in intangible things like strategic plays and tactics for individual players. Otherwise, people will just simply aim to frag and dominate players to rake up ratings, rendering it pointless and inconclusive. To begin with, why not create a group for the relatively weaker puggers who are new, and appoint a couple few players to initiate pugs designed for such players. Unless there already exists such a group, which I apologise then for wasting seconds of your life reading this suggestion

[/quote']

 

i like this idea. but i have no idea whether it is already implemented, you could ask natapon about that. but we cannot have too many groups.. thats one of the problems. and you have to find people who are willing to coach these newer players.

[deliaren 3]

about the rift' date=' i dont mean for the server to be called 'lower level pug server' its more of a training server. get what i mean? pugs rolling on weekday? usually after the announcement 'PUG starting in 20#' people will flock to the server. [/quote']

 

do you see many people play as much on weekends or weekdays, i think that is partly the same with newer puggers, and splitting the two will just make it harder for us to start pugs

 

the problem is because the 'pug group' (no offense) is quite small. a small fraction of pubbers. so with the introduction of this new server, more pubbers can eventually join the 'pug group' the stacking isnt a problem.. if pugs are not announced to start, then the server usually has only 1 or 2 people. and 1 of them is asiafortresstv4.

 

180-ish people i agree its pretty small and not even half of them is ever online on weekdays and some don't even play anymore, if you can bring 12 pubbers that play 24-7 thats fine by me.

 

if we see people who are dominating the entire enemy team' date=' it could be possible that he is a veteran pugger or should be a normal pugger. [/quote']

 

that doesn't classify veteran and newbie puggers, a team of puggers who know their role can easily do this, and there is always 1% of luck involved in every situation

[emir 10]

i dont think that having 2 different pugs will make it harder to start pugs; in the first place, these 2 servers are supposed to cater to 2 different groups of people. the current pug regulars should be frequenting the "vet-level pug" anyway, and shouldn't even be bothering with the "entry-level pug". (we need better names than these lol) if anything, it'll help the vet-level pug get more people in the long run, as people graduate from the low level and move up to vet level.

 

the larger issue at hand, i believe, is the categorisation of veteran and newbie players. even now, there are some pug players who i feel should be allowed to play in the entry-level pug, simply because the current pugs are somewhat beyond them. we can't judge people based on time played, because time played =/= skill level.

ideally, we should be differentiating between the 2 based on experience, or skill. again, this is hard because you can't tangibly measure skill. moreover, trying to use "skill level" as a distinguishing factor would reinforce the discrimination against newbie players, since they'd be regarded to be of "lower skill".

 

i personally feel that this is how it should work: only players newer to pugging should be allowed in the lower level server (we'll call it a different name). honestly, everyone should know themselves; if you're top fragging or stomping everyone in current pugs, or at the least doing reasonably well, then you know you dont belong in the lower level server. for some people, who are still pretty new to the scene but have been pugging a few times, they should be given the benefit of the doubt and be allowed to play in the low level server, unless they do too well and stomp everyone there.

how do we reinforce this? we'll need admins to come to the server from time to time, preferably check everytime there's a pug going on. presently, players can use the votekick system if there's a vet player trying to dick around in the low level server. low-level players should be allowed to move up to the vet-level anytime they want; it's their choice, really, if they want to get rolled and raged at by the more temperamental players in the vet-pug. in fact, i think the bigger problem is low-level players trying to stick around in the low-level server more than they should. for this, we'll need to remind them that they're not going to get any better playing with newbies, and we should be helping to assimilate them into the vet-level pug.

 

one more thing: if and hopefully when this thing takes off, we should have a one-day mentoring event, catering only to people who have never pugged before, and who would like to. maybe have everyone in a mumble + server, teach them basic things like rollouts, pushing and pulling, etc. and of course, conduct a few pugs for these players with the mentors spec-ing and giving advice in mumble. i'd be glad to coordinate this once the wrinkles in this plan have been ironed out; ideally, this should be done right after masters, maybe in mid september.

[Otuzi 0]

neither do i. we need more people playing pug anyway. i expected more teams to join masters really :/

 

that is one issue that should be quite easily solved.. after all. seeing how people play we should know. look out for people carrying their team, rocket/sticky jumping across the whole map and/or having near hax aim. im not saying people who can do airshots should be banned, but rather people who can airshot all the time.

 

i agree with that. if we use skill level as a factor, it will make the other not-so-good players feel bad about themselves.

 

that could be a problem, as people new to the scene cant dominate people of the same skill level, but can dominate really noob players. therefore, admins should not come into the game, look at the scoreboard to see who is dominating who, and then kick the person. he/she should first view the enemy team gameplay before taking action. that is true..

 

one day mentoring event? cool. i would love to help out it will require lots of organising, and preferably somewhere in the school holidays. im not saying everyone who plays tf2 is in school, but there are quite a big amount of them. on school holidays in the afternoon would be the best time.

 

the mumble server may not be a good idea, as if too many people are there, we can get spammed and those who want to listen to the teachings actually cant. alternatively we can kick these spammers (kids :/) to get on with it. recruiting volunteers would be good. mid sept is near the holidays, so this would be a great time to have the event.

[jlken 0]

Airshot =/= skill. A guy who can airshot 95% of the time but die straight afterwards is arguably worse than a guy who can get 3 unspectacular kills but protects his medic and stays alive. Game sense is as important as aim if not more so and game sense isn't an easy thing to gauge.

 

I don't really see any reliable way of implementing a skill-based tiering system without some form of drawback.

[Otuzi 0]

yeah.. thats true too. best way is to maybe implement 2 skill based tiering system? idk. lots of issues to iron out.

[Flare 0]

Why not have

 

1) a low level pug group as selected, moderated by mostly newer players/1-2 mature admins from the better players group

 

2) assign 1 server to be for entry level games

 

the way i see it, you dont really need a hard classification system etc, the more rules you have the more people will find ways to circumvent and bend them (ie creating new accounts, changing ip using proxy blah).

 

Why not just make it publicly known that 1) any new players joining the experienced games and ruining for the team will get kicked and 2) any vet players joining entry games and carrying will also get kicked (and possibly banned since this is an even more douchbaggery act).

 

Have 1-2 people who care administering and executing the bans, and open the low lvl pug server for good players that want to watch/mentor (but not play and stomp just for luls).

 

Its in the interest of new players to join the new server if it is available (and if they know/are secure in the knowledge that none of the vets will stomp on/rage at them), and also in the interest of better players not to be retarded and join the new server just to stomp (might as well play a pub?).

 

Then another idea: to be promoted you have to go through the admins and get 'endorsements' from lets say 3 experienced players (who arent your friends etc) that you can play decently enough.

[Otuzi 0]

this is a good idea.. however, how are you going to carry out the promotion part? after all, anyone can enter the normal pug as long as they know the password :/

[Flare 0]

Why not just make it publicly known that 1) any new players joining the experienced games and ruining for the team will get kicked and

 

So if you arent officially promoted and you come to play then :> do it a few times and get a ban :>

[Otuzi 0]

they can change name wad..

[Flare 0]

when you are banned it doesnt matter if you change your nick.

 

... in confused. so tell me, since you are new, do you enjoy getting stomped on in normal pug servers to the extent that you will circumvent this system?

 

i was under the impression that new players wanted a platform to NOT get stomped and raged on.

 

if you dont WANT to stay in your server until you are good enough to get promoted, why are we trying to think of ways to make the scene more forgiving in the first place?

 

[Otuzi 0]

i meant before.. that. lols.

 

well.. idk.

[emir 10]

im quite in agreement with flare; we don't need to restrict it so much. logically speaking, newer players should embrace this opportunity to start pugging in a less stressful atmosphere. we'd only need to prevent higher level players from ruining the experience from them.

 

so that's that. seems like the more pressing issue is how to let players transit from the lower level to higher level. i think the recommendation thing sounds a bit too formal; the idealist in me would like to believe that low level pug players wouldn't prematurely go into the vet-pug before they're well and truly ready, but i don't know whether that would actually be the case. my preference would be to keep in unrestricted again, players may transit anytime they want, but at their own risk of being raged at/stomped on, etc.

 

publicity-wise, since someone asked, it shouldn't be a problem. for starters, we could have the event i mentioned earlier, and publicise with everyone spamming binds in pub servers or something. possibly get the e-club admins to put a poster on the server MOTDs. with enough support from our community, publicity shouldnt be a problem.

[yuko 46]

as emir said,

 

the lower-levelled players should decide on their own when to transit to the vet pugs.

 

if they get flamed at during the vet pugs,

i think they should know what to do.

 

alternatively, they can sit in some vet pugs and just watch and learn.

i guess.