Am bored at work, will answer questions!

[Flare 0]

@ jared read my reply to yukari

 

@ yukari : to be fair MGE is a decent practice for aim albeit in very controlled environments (without 10 things flying in ur face, having to worry about med), and reading movements of players, so i wouldnt rate it completely shit useless. I found that it HAS helped me abit in combo v combo fights where getting 4 rockets 100% on the enemy pocket ASAP (with not much time to track). Other than that, 95% of "aim problems" are generally correctable with better position or team pushes or other play skills. Who needs to aim when ur either 1) on a crate looking down on enemies or 2) right in their face.

 

ive not played spammah in mge but as his nationality suggests he should be pretty bad. i am about even with cookies im pretty shit at mge.

 

for the other qn: yup i do, its been carried over in my head since my NS days when using it make bhopping (esp up slopes) much more reliable, and bite-surfing alot more effective. its a simple script that goes like this:

 

alias +cjump "+jump; +duck"

alias -cjump "-jump; -duck"

bind space "+cjump"

 

Alias in autoexec, bind in config (doh). IF you have trouble getting max height jumps manually, you could use this and it should help. But i dont advise it anyway, you lose alot more flexibility with your jumps (i was getting flak for not being able to curve my blinks enough, and solus has mastered that curve airaccel abuse which is why he is the only tool ever to use adren fade). That can only be achieved through pure manual control. I still use it cuz old habits really die hard and 2+ years of NS has really weaned my pinky off the crouch key. But yeah its a toss up between flexibility and reliability (which you should be able to achieve 100% of the time anyway if u arent lazy).

 

That being said, im glad TF2 has decent enough coding / fewer tools who abuse scripts/macros to the max as what was seen in NS. You had real bastards doing shit like rate switching with every JUMP or pistol shot so it was literally impossible to hit anything (on top of shitty hl1 code, poorer internet speeds/equipment).

[LToro 2]

what do you think about team Missing in Action and our members?

 

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/miagaiming

[r3sty 7]

like every new team, mia suffers from lack of teamwork syndrome. no comms, no focus fire and everybody is doing their own thing. for the team to step up, they need to be on the same page be it defending, attacking, flanking and etc. have your key classes stay alive as much as possible, cause i noticed your demoman is getting killed at the wrong time. have one of your guys be the dedicated caller, this will help keep your guys from doing silly shite. it will take a long time for this to work but once everything falls into place you can take on anyone.

[ch3rry 7]

is bing your demoman? i noticed he reaches mid really slowly, a demoman reaching mid quickly can actually change the whole midfight.

[yuko 46]

what are your views of having a dedicated pocket and roam soldier for the team, where the pocket just perma-whores the med and the roam just perma-whores the enemy med?

 

this compared to having highly versatile soldier duo who swaps their roles when needed.

would it be better to have a dedicated pocket and roam so as to avoid confusion for the medic?

 

ive seen many teams who blame the 'pocket' the moment the med dies, but its also the team's fault in general for allowing a leak (scout) in the first place isn't it?

 

if the pocket sees an opportunity to jump and choke off an area, should he do it? what are the things he should be considering when he does so.

 

also what are your views on having a scout-temporary-pocket when both of your sollies aggro. i see this in NFR sometimes when xe and atx jumps leaving k1 to pocket med for the time being. i might be wrong.

 

thanks

[Flare 0]

for mia what cherry said. bing needs to pull his imba demo weight around slightly more.

 

@yuko thats a long post with lotsa points, so one by one:

 

i think it really depends on the team and sollies/medic and how he heals and the map as well. Both setups can be extremely effective and its up to the team to figure out which is the best one to use. For eg, if you remember to old 20id with seagull and rocketsurgeon, they are a classic example of a very versatile pair, with both players just rotating in and out and not really having any set roles. As a result they raped on BL where i think more of that flexibility and movement is needed. Versus a map like say viaduct (especially), where on more occasion you need that sheer bully power of a combo and the roamer becomes more roamy and does things like pop enemy uber at good times and assist in picking demo. For eg your own team also has a more versatile set-up than vco (can you even imagine malice not connected to the medic for 1 second??????) but they do well also in their own way.

 

For new teams i think its good to have a set pair though, its more straightforward for the medic. That was how i learnt the game and that defines my playstyle now. Note that being leashed to your med doesnt mean you cant be aggressive (you always can) and open plays for your team (although this moves slightly lower down ur priorities when you are the set pocket).

 

In general its quite easy (for me at least) to know when it is my fault and when it isnt. Generally teams that collectively find it easy together to accept blame correctly do well also. Whenever something screws up, instead of trying to blame someone fully for what went wrong, i find its far better if each person in the team can think of ways in which he could hve done things better so that the situation wont happen.

 

For eg if a scout kills ur med with pocket still alive (as u mentioned), everyone on the team should be able to think of at least 1 reason why that happened as a result of what THEY did. So the demo should question if he couldve watched the flanks more, the scouts commed better or helped more, the pocket himself if his aim was bad, the med himself if his dodge was shit, the roam if he didnt even catch the scout running past him. Even for things like a medic drop ppl tend to say FUCK u medic. But if the whole team improved their game by a little each, you wouldnt be faced with a situation where 2 rockets and a pipe direct shotted ur medic at the same time.

 

Next, yea why not? All depends on safety of the medic and how critical the sitaution is (ie if u dont jump, good chance ur team wipes). If enemy 2 scouts down, yea usually u can do this without fear. For eg sometimes on BL mid, your roamer takes a lucky pipe in the face and cant jump anymore, sometimes I assess and feel the need to 'open' for my team also and just jump anyway and hope someone on my team sees me and covers duty for me.

 

That i guess is the situation you see happening sometimes (more often with atx than me), cuz atx (prob more confident in his aim) sees himself doing more when jumping then staying back for 2 seconds more before jumping. I tend to must have a compelling reason before i jump (like i just saw the demo and medic take a splash nade), otherwise i just move forward and bully. My aim is prob not as crisp though, so that affects my calculations as well. So when i play with xe seldom u see both of us jump. Not sure which works out better - you be the judge.

[JuzJoe 0]

Haha, I can immediately feel the pressure as a pocket solly when I played my first two 6v6 pugs on AFA. It was assigned to me and I was at first reluctant to play as the pocket due to my lack of experience. During those games I was very occupied with thoughts like: "Protect the Medic at all cost!" "To jump or not to jump?" "Where is my Medic?" "What do I do now that my whole team is dead" "Shit! 2 scouts are on my Medic!" Basically, I spend most of the time confused and worried then actually playing my role.

 

AFA was both demoralizing and a huge eye opener to me. Rest be assured that I'm not giving-up but felt even more determined to improve! xD

 

Sorry Flare for posting my thoughts and rant on your thread but I couldn't help it but share my thoughts here as since you guys were discussing about pocket soldier.

[Flare 0]

Yup that is normal! Dont worry, if you keep playing these issues should generally sort themselves out as long as you keep trying to think about them. The good thing about playing solly is it is the most forgiving class aim wise, you really dont need to be a master quake/cs player to do well. The bad thing is that its easier to completely FAIL at if you lack experience or gamesense, and comfort with medic, which can only be built after many many many hours. That is also the reason why there are generally many more new players playing scout and demo, because you dont feel quite as useless even if you are actually failing, whereas if you are failing as a pocket you are close to being completely piss-poor worthless and slow.

[Madman 185]

Didn't take this thread seriously at the start but I gotta say its got some pretty good archival quality shit.

 

So my question is, do you think the protection of a medic (in particular against jumpers and scouts) is solely a pockets duty? Is the soldier class capable of such a responsibility?

 

A bit of context here, my playstyle with the scout usually gets me the opportunity to line-up a couple of multikill cleanups toward the end of a fight- say get an important class like medic or demo then kill a soldier and scout with the remaining ammo in my scatter. Yet while these team wipes are both impressive and fun, my medic sometimes dies during the extended time in which I am busy leaking and otherwise not watching the flank or tracking the enemy scouts as well as I should have. In the end despite having the man advantage my team is unable to make any significant push because we have no medic. Assuming I did call that I am going to play aggressively, is it the pockets fault that our medic goes down to jumpers and scouts? Or should I as a scout have been there instead of playing aggro? Because I do find that aggressors, in particular jumping soldiers with buffs go down much smoother and quicker when I drop whatever I'm killing to run back and give that extra meatshot in the back. That way my sollies just pop a rocket and the threat is dealt with. (at the expense of letting my original target get away).

 

TL;DR Do you as a pocket depend/expect on scouts to help you with keeping shit off your medic, and do you think such a dependency is a good thing or a bad thing?

[yuko 46]

Sorry if I'm not meant to be answering in this thread but I've got my opinions on what madman posted.

 

The safety of the medic has to be ensured by everyone in the team. The scouts keep flanks clear, the demoman denies the main choke, the roam helps whichever side needs help and the pocket keeps the medic safe of any immediate threat should there be a leak. Leaks, 99% of the time stems from a very Simple reason, someone isn't doing their job. While it is discouraged to immediately point fingers at anyone during the game itself, the team should question themselves as to why there was such a problem in the first place and improve adequately in the subsequent rounds. However, fingers will almost instantly point to the pocket should the medic die. Most teams however do not realise it's entirely the pocket's fault.

 

You also mentioned that despite having a man advantage you guys can't push. Well situations might differ but as long as you've got some sort of advantage you should be able to work something. Man advantage for example, you could always start a flank or initiate the next cap but be prepared to fall fast collectively.

 

The only time you should be calling aggro is when you need to take ground for your demoman. This is done alot on rollouts. Demomen and roams should spearhead the aggro and you're there to hold, then mop up. I never believed scouts were meant to be an aggressive class to play. Think of him as an assassin. You lurk and wait for when they dont notice you. You capitalise on their faults and wrongs and not make any yourself.

 

There are times when you have to create a play but never do this alone if you're not confident. For myself I switch to sniper when we are having a disadvantage (uber). For you you might wanna

Consider spy.

 

Just my 2c, over 2 u flare

[Madman 185]

The only time you should be calling aggro is when you need to take ground for your demoman. This is done alot on rollouts. Demomen and roams should spearhead the aggro and you're there to hold, then mop up. I never believed scouts were meant to be an aggressive class to play. Think of him as an assassin. You lurk and wait for when they dont notice you. You capitalise on their faults and wrongs and not make any yourself.

 

I think this pretty much nails it. So what you're saying is, if I do choose/have to aggro up, I should jolly well be instantly running the hell back in case of a leak because if anyone dies to the enemy aggressor, its pretty much solely my fault for not being there to begin with... It's an ideal playstyle to let the heavies take the lead but there are situations where the scouts can really shine by taking the initiative. Still, I agree that scouts aren't cut for offense and it's really silly to be +fwd-ing ALL the time tho.

 

As for creating plays, I've tried to cut down on doing that as a scout by polishing up my sniper. The spy is amazing and all, but it''s extremely limited by speed (and range). In games against anyone except the most clumsy and slow teams (like pugs), you can't really get into the ideal position before they push up and the window of opportunity is lost. Except maybe for KOTH and lastcaps. Your scout partner also suffers the flank alone. An ambassador negates much of the speed limit by giving you essentially unlimited range in the form of mini-crit headshots that do not have damage falloff but its since been disallowed.

 

Other pockets do reply to my initial question too, if you depend on scouts or you take it upon yourself and only yourself to fix leaks (disregard whose fault it is that the leak actually happened).

[yuko 46]

The only time you should be calling aggro is when you need to take ground for your demoman. This is done alot on rollouts. Demomen and roams should spearhead the aggro and you're there to hold' date=' then mop up. I never believed scouts were meant to be an aggressive class to play. Think of him as an assassin. You lurk and wait for when they dont notice you. You capitalise on their faults and wrongs and not make any yourself.

[/quote']

 

I think this pretty much nails it. So what you're saying is, if I do choose/have to aggro up, I should jolly well be instantly running the hell back in case of a leak because if anyone dies to the enemy aggressor, its pretty much solely my fault for not being there to begin with...

 

once again it has to depend on the situation you're faced with. IF the situation requires you to be the one who does the aggro, don't forget that you have another scout. he/she can watch the flank during your absence. as much as i do not like nor want to point fingers, if you CALL that you're gonna aggro, and your team KNOWS you're gonna aggro, then it becomes their responsibility to help you; your partner scout should continue watching the flank, your roam should jump together with you or can choose to flank with your other scout, your demoman should start moving forward or even jumping in, and your combo should follow shortly after.

 

if you're gonna aggro and in the end have to take the blame when your med dies/push fails, and so you decide to run back everytime you aggro, i'd rather you not aggro at all.

 

aggro with a purpose, and make sure everyone in your team knows that purpose, and that they know what to do. it comes with practice, it comes with countless hours of playing as a team.

 

a scout isn't assigned pocket for a reason; it has countless other things to do, so don't think of yourself as one.

[Flare 0]

@madman

 

I think for me, i only depends on my scouts and roam to tell me when they are aggroing (like yuko said), and the rest is up to me. Everyone on the team is in that sense expected to be able to defend the medic if someone else (INCLUDING ME) spots an opportunity to capitalise on. For eg, if i see my scout and roamer both do tons of damage to combo + some other players in a clump but not get the kill, as a pocket i WILL leave my medic to finish them all off regardless if my medic dies. In this situation, anyone that is around the medic (demo, scout, whatever shit) is expected to try their best to defend as well. I only rarely do this tho, because i must be certain i can kill the enemy medic at LEAST (if not the trade failed due to uber push on 4th).

 

I think it really boils down to whether the main fragging power lies and the map. For eg, if the map were granary, i feel it is alot more helpful to the team if a scout helps with the mid-mid-fight jumping solly or +fwd scout, instead of trying to make a play, simply because it is so easy for any solly to trap the enemy once he has the freedom to take the crate ( ie 2v1 sollies). However, on BL, scouts in general are more useful and 2 unhindered scouts leaking on BL can really destroy the whole team no prob while i swat at whatever comes my way.

 

Also for eg, if your team is combo frag heavy, then sometimes supporting and helping with the jumpers achieves goals more efficiently (than if u leaked and tried to clean everything up). If your pocket is capable of consistently wiping everythign 2 seconds after you helped him clear shit up, then play to that strength. If you land 100% meatshots and seldom die when doing that, then ur pocket should be 'supporting' and just defend. Everyone playing as though they were the 'star' player all the time really makes some tough times.

 

[Jared the Hippo 0]

When should the syringe gun come out?

 

Lately I've been pulling it out to help teammates when I notice they are reloading and got enemies aiming them or me. Usually it's scout all over demo.

 

Oh yeah and I did ask cleric but imma ask you too, what do I do when a soldier jumps me, what's the best way to make hitting those rockets hard? Running towards the jumper, rocket surf?

[HaXxorIzed 17]

snip

 

I think these types of questions come up because a lot of people forget that roles aren't there because nerds get mad if you don't play the game 'properly'. They're there because they the optimal way to structure a team. This said' date=' there's plenty of room for stylin and 99.9% of it hinges on the ability of the players to understand the game.

 

It is really about mentality, not a strict set of rules to follow. And generally, teams that say they 'don't have pocket or roamer' are generally teams who have their soldiers spending the time game looking at a respawn timer. This behaviour doesn't last long as the teams get to the top level, either. Even the top european teams have moved more towards set roles in each soldier over time.

 

Someone has to initiate. If you don't have an advantage, you better [i']make one[/i]. This is usually the off soldier in modern tf2, or one of the scouts with soldier support. The roamer will always be getting in there early though. So one of your soldiers should have the mentality of "initiate on duh middle lane pls" when they need to, so they can stand in spots where this is a good idea. There's a lot less confusion here.

 

There's a lot of ways with which you can play this. Seagull was either all out aggression or defensive and tended to take a medic with him (TLR probably plays the most like him nowadays). Platinum likes getting both his soldiers and his scouts right on top of the enemy team and leaves the med a bit more. Hocz seldom leaves his medic but also likes to give a lot of freedom to his demoman. The point is all of these soldiers are taking actions to win each situation for their team, not hide in a corner because a scout might drop their healbot. You can work this however the fuck you want but the point is the roles are still there.

 

As for what I think about combo soldier and it's responsibility to defend the medic from scouts, I don't really put the responsibility on any one player. Every player needs to be aware of if your team has advantage/disadvantage, what kind, what position you're in and how to use it or defend against it. That kind of ability to understand the game is how you'll keep your medic safe more than any kind of stunning death-match. Although obviously your overhealed demo or soldier is going to need to be able to smack around anyone who comes hither. The reverse of this is also that it's every single player's responsibility to focus all their efforts on winning a fight for their team. If you need to jump and smack a bitch to salvage a fight but say bye-bye to your medic due to his impending death, well he can get over it. Welcome to tf2.

 

I also don't like the idea that the pocket is the "goalkeeper", because that's a load of bullshit. Yes, you're in a good position to defend your medic and yes, you want him to live as much as possible. But there's going to be a lot of situations where the reason your medic dies is 'out of your control' (and that might not even be a bad thing). The reason your medic might die in a midfight can be the same reason you won the bloody thing. Look at the situation after the game and understand why. This game is about territory and position, not just heals.

 

Losing the medic is always an outcome I'd rather avoid, but what's more important than the life of a medic is the situation in question. Wiping a midfight and losing a medic isn't perfect, but if every fight ends up that way you'll never lose a game of tf2. Chances are the reason you're losing your medic is the same reason you are winning the midfights - aggression and committing totally. The entire game is about advantage/disadvantage and you don't "track" by hanging back with your team and being a sissy or waiting for them all the time. Don't wait for an advantage to come to you, take it. The exceptions are stuff like you've just turned their medic/combo into mush and you know they have one late player making a desperate play, or something equally obvious.

 

As for dodging rockets, crouchjumping away if you are medic.