Azazel

10/10 - 5 = 5/10 -5 because no taxi will die

WHAT A SNEAKY HOEEEEEE

0/10 for failing operation protect jester to div10 soldier like myself

yes please.

10/10 -1 for being short +1 for growing taller

Name : Azazel Steam ID/URL : http://steamcommunity.com/id/evangoh1987/ Class : Scout

omg so cute... but my 2 cats already raping my wallet... good luck finding a home for that cutie!

Azazel Steamid: http://steamcommunity.com/id/evangoh1987/ class : scout

wow so fierce ah. i want to play!

azazel needs mentoring

Name: Azazel Class: Scout, Pyro, Spy Country: Singapore Languages Spoken: English Available Playing Times: (Friday 12nn-7pm, Sat 9am-8pm, Wed 3pm-8pm) these timings cannot, the rest of the week can. Skill Level: i am very bad but please let me play Steam Community Page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/evangoh1987/

azazel here dai lou rate pls

this isnt long at all i vote fuzz because he is fair, sometimes.

mmhmm... i replied, he replied, they replied, discussion ensued... I actually started pugging only this April/May period together with Tyrane and Xoom. Refer to other posts. Sorry, I am still poor student and I am not responsible for your education. Also, i no money. Even if I could afford it I would buy it for my nephew. You buy your own set. No need to apologize, everybody automatically has an increased bravado(and some say even libido) when typing on that keyboard and posting on that forum. All's good, no hard feelings, and you guys have made me very welcome at my first forum thread posting episode here at asiafortress. Whether this all works out by itself remains to be seen, and when shit happens(shit always happens), I might grace everybody's presence once again with a 2500 word no paragraph, quote filled, unstructured essay-like thingamajig. In the meantime though, have fun off-classing necessarily! - Azazel

I VOTE SHOUNIC

yes boss

Finally, back to the issue. Thanks natapon for your reply. If no off-classing to mid is a rule indeed, can we have it in the MOTD so it becomes "in the rules"? This way, even if admins have to warn/kick their friends, there is something concrete for them to refer to so it is less of a guilt trip. I would also like to highlight, that a big factor of this unnecessary offclassing rule is to not "teach new players the wrong things". In other words, running a sniper to granary mid, or spy to granary mid, or pyro to badlands mid, isn't ALL ABOUT HOW EFFECTIVE IT IS, but also about not setting a wrong example for the new players, is it not? For the mindset of the community to change, it has to be instilled through common sense (most people have it so they don't do retarded off-classing to mid), and for those who don't have that common sense or just don't give a fuck, through rules and regulations put in place to prevent retarded behaviour. Have a Rule 1a that simply states "No off-classing to mid on cp maps", as a additional clause to the Rule 1 of "no unnecessary off-classing". Yes, it stifles possible effective and viable playstyles(which work only when said player is div1 offclasser), but how else do you set an example for newer players?

If you haven't noticed, this is not a witch hunt. If it were there would be names being thrown around. It doesn't matter who said what. I try to keep everything as impersonal and directed towards the issue as possible, so the above solution you suggested is obviously impractical and draconic. Because honestly man, the only person going all "huurrrdurrrr I don't understand shit you sayin bro", is you. From the initial discussion with cameron, natapon, darkie, puzzled, r3sty, and finally Fuzz, all of them have been replying with intelligent replies and giving their own input on the matter. You, on the other hand, have only been confounded. Teal, Madman, Fuzz has read my posts and we've had constructive discussions on mumble/steam chat etc. I hate to come across as rude, but I believe the problem to be your lack of ability to comprehend the English language(where everyone else who has posted clearly has). Every undergraduate has learnt this golden rule: If you haven't done your readings for the tutorial, don't open your mouth and speak. So with all due respect, if you can't understand my posts, feel free to ignore them because this forum isn't meant for people stuck at your level of comprehension only. Or you can continue to go "huurrrdurrrr I don't understand shit you sayin bro", and proceed to paste other uninteresting GIFs. Suit yourself. I personally find this issue rather complicated and complex, which is why there are differing opinions and disputes regarding off-classing. If everything can be easily concluded, summarized, and packaged.... Then there is no need for a discussion. Last I recalled, this is the General Discussion section of the forum. For a staff member of this asiafortress forum to be continuously leading the discussing in a segway, ala trolling, and contributing unintelligently to the conversation because he simply cannot understand thread posts that others can, I suggest simply: simple, unanimated jpg for you. If you're not here to discuss, but place your period on every active discussion, then we'll just have to wait for the week to end. P.S: I've highlighted the tl;dr parts just for you joe, so after you purchase this "Hooked On Phonics" package be sure to read the parts in bold i've highlighted in the previous post.

So trolling a thread started by Madman regarding specific issues of off-classing in asiafortress pugs is perfectly professional as well? Well done. Anyway, back to the issue. So I was having a conversation today with a few of the admins on mumble this morning at 4am(seriously) and then later at 5pm in the afternoon, and through a heated conversation certain perspectives were revealed. I have been referring to this time and again because it is a conclusive statement, and I'd like to think that natapon is the shot-caller here in asiafortress. Many of the admins, be it pug admins or asiafortress admins, have very different and even conflicting views about AF rules, and the "unnecessary offclassing" rule in particular. Some have even been saying how "natapon doesn't mean it", or "let's see whether this gets enforced". Different people have different perspectives, hence different degrees of tolerance and cause of action, that I understand. However, some have perspectives that directly compromise the rule itself. So in the late afternoon on 19/12/12: AFL ADMIN: Kicked x2 | Mamamia ?(???)? Player x2 | Mamamia ?(???)? left the game (Kicked by administrator) *DEAD* sud : !replace *SPEC* farnsy : admin pls sud : !replace Mamamia forced uber as a spy at gullywash last. Whether necessary or not is disputable, and thus let's not discuss the ambiguity of the word "unnecessary" because that will just never end. Later that day, at 2am on granary... Veteran players were running sniper to middle, spy to middle, for a good 5 rounds. At first I thought it would be only for a few rounds, so I simply kept quiet and waited for the 3 server admins playing together with us to react. However, many rounds passed and there was no result. The only "warning" that was given after 4 rounds was "don't offclass leh, your offclassing makes me sad" Onward to koth_viaduct, which is notorious for offclassing, and since it only has one mid point, it does complicate the "no off-classing to mid" rule. Here we have veterans running 24/7 spies, 2 snipers on a team, you name it. So I brought this up with the admins in mumble at the time, and these were some of the replies. "I think the unnecessary offclassing rule applies more to the new players, than the old players. I think its okay for the old players to be off-classing" "You must know what time of the night it is... its 2am in the morning... who cares?" What? Really? So I asked, if it were 8pm at prime time, and if it were an old player who was running an off-class to middle, whether he would warn the fellow. "Of course, I would." Come 4pm today, 20/12/12 on AF #2 pug server, there was a sniper offclassing to gullywash middle for 5 consecutive rounds. When I questioned the same admin who said he would react to an off-class to mid in the prime time of the day whether old player or new player(since earlier his argument was that it was at 2am so its ok), he retorted with: "Was that sniper effective?" "If that sniper kills 6 people at mid, you mean to say he can't be running sniper to mid?" "What do you want me to do? The rule itself is ambiguous, and because it is ambiguous it is enforceable" Yes, enforcable in situations that admins deem it unambiguous, which happens to be players that are new to the scene, whereas veteran players get a simple "don't offclass leh, your offclassing makes me sad" "Is it my fault that you got killed by the sniper? It's not my fault that you are bad and you can't handle a sniper at middle" In before discussing the professionalism of this particular admin, and how his perspectives change at his whim, let us consider the thought process and how this relates to the entire discourse. If X is effective, he can be running any class he wants to anywhere. To further solidify his argument, he suggests that "in a scrim, if it is effective, why not? how is a pug any different from a scrim?" In a scrim, you are answerable to your teammates, and the consequence is your win or loss. Any rules are the competition rules that you agree to when you sign up with your team. Why would a rule like "no unnecessary off-classing" be required in a PUG, but not a scrim? The difference that is eluding the admin is self-evident. Honestly, I don't blame the admins for having different perspectives on the issue, overreacting to new players off-classing, or total inaction towards blatant off-classing by veteran players. Because ultimately, I don't think any one of us are clear about anything. Is that really set in stone? Do you really mean it? Because honestly it is not that hard to enforce. NO OFFCLASSING TO MID: I DON'T CARE WHO YOU ARE (ON CP MAPS-covering that potential koth loophole) An ambiguous statement will only lead even more so to inaction because our community is so small, and its not rare that the admin is facing an offender who is a friend. The only way to be impartial is if the RULE ITSELF IS CLEAR. Madman spoke of how guidelines and more rules will only encourage hiding and making use of loopholes. I would argue that the current rule of "No unnecessary offclassing" is simply a gigantic loophole that all of us are hiding behind. So what is the stand? Off-classing is okay if you are effective. If you can kill the entire team and survive running sniper/pyro/heavy/engineer/spy to any situation, it is absolutely okay. or No off-classing to mid no matter who you are, and any additional off-classing at 2nd/last depends on the necessity of the situation. I don't care if I get sniped 5/5 times I head out to mid by a killer sniper. They have one less scout/soldier, and off-classing creates a different disadvantage for that particular team. If it is still not clear enough to people yet, the issue here is the double standards that ensue as a result of an ambiguous rule. Things have to be made clear and conclusive. While it is impossible to state every situation that will allow/disallow off-classing, natapon came up with one simple guideline: "no off-classing to mid" If there can be double standards or admins that blatantly ignore such a clear and distinct statement, I give up.

What? YOU MEAN U DON'T? O.O

not structured essay, clearly no paragraphs. Last I recalled MOE was the organization compelling students to follow certain sentence structures and the preferred model of writing. You might want to sign up with NIE, good career choice for you since you're clearly a good student valuing them marks. Good for you!

WA LAO

i nominate tyrane!

being an admin does not allow me or anyone to do this so don't imply that the current rule allows such behavior. agreed and never implied that. "I firmly disagree with drawing up guidelines. If I had my way, I would have the no off-class shit totally removed. Let people play what they want when they want, its mostly the scouts who act this way, and in no time they will have no demo/medic/solly friends. It has already been clear that if you want to not suck, don't deviate from your main until you've built a reputation. I'd rather give people the freedom and leave it on their common sense to know when to play what than to have all the hand holding that stresses admins and stunts playstyles, this isn't set in some idealist scenario as you suggest, this is entirely feasible. Such a decision will inconvenience the helpful in the community just a little bit but totally tilt the whiners who don't contribute shit. I'm okay with that." After 2-3 posts I can clearly see your perspective now, took awhile but yes, point taken. "You ask for a general direction that newbies can look to: this direction is to not off-class at all outside your team's own scrims. Bad? Yes. Worse than the alternatives? No." Even without guidelines of any sort, the current rules are already encouraging such behaviour: to not off-class at all outside your team's own scrims. While you are open to embrace an appropriate and viable "pyro to badlands mid" play, im not sure most of the community would agree forthrightly. "I'd rather give people the freedom and leave it on their common sense to know when to play what than to have all the hand holding that stresses admins and stunts playstyles, this isn't set in some idealist scenario as you suggest, this is entirely feasible." Pray do tell, since these rules were set in place as a direct result of the abuse of said freedom. "after 25mins of reading over dinner. I have a very straightforward version of the offclass rule that is easy to understand and enforce. IF ANYONE ON YOUR TEAM COMPLAINS ABOUT YOU OFFCLASSING THEN DO NOT OFFCLASS. easy and simple. if no one complains you are in the green" Yeah thats usually what happens now, and its what fuels the ambiguity of the rule altogether. On one hand, if nobody complains you are in the green, but on the other hand... "it doesn't matter who you are, you should not be off-classing unnecessarily. it is against the pug rules (read the damn MOTD). the admins are here to help keep the pugs quick and fun, they need to have fun too, don't take that away from them." The variable here is clearly the situation, which is the determining factor of whether the off-class is unnecessary. So we're torn between the camps of "off-classing should be allowed depending on who is doing it, if no one is complaining, go ahead" vs "unnecessary off-classing is disallowed(sniper at mid even)". Hmm.

im reminded of the time..... halu... and me.... were on... an.... mge server.....