k1infran

Hey everyone. I used to be a Div 1 scout but am currently now a regular pug player. I've realised that the AF community is growing but lacking in guidance. There are players who has not read any threads in this sub-forum while others are unable to get further help beyond reading guides. With that, I'm going to be taking a few Core mentees for 1 to 1 training, I will highlight their strengths and improve on their weaknesses. For whatever reason that I'm unable to take everyone, you may tune in to the stream to listen. I may not be one of the better scouts in TF2 but we'll just have to deal with that. The stream I refer to will be on: http://www.twitch.tv/k1infran This will be on a weekly basis and with time, you will improve enough to comprehend why I rage in pugs. Heh Oh btw, I welcome all divisions of players as long as you fit the following criteria What you will experience: - Friend list for 1 on 1 Q&A. - Pick a few best replays of the week, and we will go through together. - If I'm free, you may request me to spectate live. - You will learn how I play in PUGs/Scrims. (Mostly PUGs as I do not have a team) - I MAY include other classes but not too confident atm. - You MAY be streamed on twitch.tv IF I receive too many requests. (highly unlikely) What I need from you: - 101% EFFORT during this. - Willingness to improve. - Take your own initiative to record demos. - If possible, find out your weaknesses beforehand so we may work them out faster. As much as I do not like putting a roof above players, I personally believe there is a potential limit in everyone. Thus, once I feel I am unable to give anymore advices, you will be Graduated. If this is what you have been looking for, you're welcome to leave your name in this thread and add me directly on steam http://steamcommunity.com/id/k1infran/ Once chosen you will be notified directly through steam

For people who continuously added me the last month, I apologise I haven't clarified that I will not be taking anymore mentees due to the lack of effort to follow up from the previous ones. No names will be given, you know who you are. I prefer to keep my steam friend list to people I actually contact with and have removed all mentees. Sorry to the rest who din't get my attention at all. tl;dr I'm done mentoring here. D:

Mate our engrish is too poor for gaming. Wanna go pick up some lezzons?

I personally feel that this debate has gone to no where since our interference, it is barely helping to see the light at the end of this tunnel after reading all that has been discussed. This shall be my last post regarding this topic, I'll leave the decision to the ones in charge.

Here's how I've felt about your posts so far. I think YOU (Azazel) are not comprehending the current situation at hand. People ARE playing off-classes because it's part of the game. However, others aren't able to cope with an off-class in the team, or unsure of how to play against it. Let us begin talking about some classes here, considering all are played by the same person who has peaked in the different classes. A scout who does huge damages but has to make melee battles with other classes . A soldier who does explosive damage but has to damage himself to make swift movements across the air. A sniper who stays at a distance, able to headshot efficiently but unable to make quick movements. A spy taking advantage of chaos and putting a knife behind someone's back, but can be easily countered through sound/vision. Not going to list every class, but I'm looking at these options, and I think a team could use one of each. And I would be glad to have a sniper putting bullets in faces while I'm in the front line, similarly to other classes depending on their gameplay. Obviously, no one knows what classes are the best for all situations. This all comes down to the player handling not only the class, but also the situation. He/She also should bear all consequences should the outcome turns ill. You say it is their problem that they don't have time to find scrims because busy with life etc. So here we discuss about helping people out with only cookie cutter classes during pugs, what about the rest of the classes? Does it really boils down to how bad you want to play as a team to get scrims for REAL match experience? Are we able to get scrims that easily in this community? Same question as my previous reply, how many scrims do you even play per week in AF? Why did you join an Australian team then? When you went to join an Australian team, how dedicated were they to finding scrims even in Division 2? This is the hard truth and you know it, those commitments don't exist HERE. Aussie scene provides regular scrims 3 days per week, try doing that with teams in AF lol. You were a mentee on my list, and you barely knew how to deal with "cookie cutter", not even going to talk about off-classes. You approach other options besides AF to play/learn the game. Do you perhaps feel that this community has nothing left to offer? Why do other scenes seem more dominant in quality of players? Maybe because they are able to afford scrim time every few days? Well, we don't have time like you mentioned. You don't even have time to make a run, and you want to make time for scrims with 11 others at specific hours when everyone is free? That sounds like a problem you want to solve by saying: "It all boils down to how much you want to play in a team." Shit if it were that easy, I'm probably a volcano with boiling magma inside me by now. Perhaps ditching my girlfriend, not spending time with my family and skipping work/studies so I can be playing video games? Not everyone has the capability to commit a specific timing to scrim. Fixing a schedule for 6 people isn't easy, least to say 12. So here's my solution: Why not spend the time during pugs to learn not just "cookie cutter", but also teamplay along with other classes? I don't think everyone's absorption rate is that low, especially from someone like yourself, coming up with all these pictures and colors to a thread discussed only by a dozen. Picking up more than 4 classes during pugs doesn't sound that hard considering there are only 5 more others. Is mumble up and running 24/7? Yeah, only if there was a chick then I'll hop on. JK~ Is voice in-game available in all servers? Pretty sure it is. Your comprehension here is a failure, you summarised the paragraph into one sentence. When I said lacking of voice communication being the last thing to worry about, I meant the options that allow voice comms are always available. Obviously if someone were to mention teamplay along with the lines of communication, do you think anyone would believe those aren't equally important?! I even referred !mumble being the crucial key to communications. This is because you kept claiming that people aren't properly discussing their games to allow teamplay in pugs. People just don't see the need to use these. Then why did an admin set up mumble for? Asiafortress Pug, Blu, Red, Spec. Empty most of the time during pugs. Maybe they have their own channels, but I'm sure newcomers don't. Perhaps most of them use in-game that's fine too, assuming though. Again you failed to understand what I was putting through in my previous post and just summarising into this sentenace: "Instead of enforcing those, we want to dictate how people should play during daily pugs. Limiting players to specific classes, unable to relate viable styles which they may have accomplished elsewhere." I'm going to put this so simple for you, so you read the following paragraph instead of thinking too hard into my reply earlier k? Off-classing is out of the option if teamplay isn't possible, teamplay isn't possible without communications. But hey, we have communications(mumble/in-game), we can make teamplay. Then BOOM, off-classing is now viable?! But since we aren't making comms a requirement, we should just ban all other actions that probably needs teamplay, and teamplay needs comms. Okie dokie? A scout should know not to suicide into an entire team. A pocket should not jump away from his medic. Each and every play relies on team communications with reasons. All these plays still happen in pugs but always overlooked if successful, why can't off-classing be the same? Isn't bringing out a spy trying to kill medic but failed, as good as a roamer jumping in and fail? It may look easier to run that core 6, but let's not deprive players of other options. Quote "People in PUGS are unable to work together as a team because there is a lack of communication(even though !mumble and voice chat exists) and teams will almost never be consistently skilled and even if consistently skilled teamwork will never be at the level of scrimmage (That's the way pick up games will always be in any team game)" So what if pug teams are never consistently skilled? What does it have to do with coming up with teamplays? Are players not supposed to treat each other as teammates in pugs? When I joined your Australian team, din't I treat you guys as teammates on the first day? Teamwork can't be at the same level on the first meet according to you, but we dominated and topped the scoreboard against full teams. Was it hard? Din't felt like it for me. I was even playing off-class sometimes. So what if communication during pugs is not on the level of teams in scrims? Is it necessary for a team to be fully communicative to achieve teamplay? I wonder how those Korean/Taiwanese/Japanese/Hongkong mix teams are doing in OUR AFC. You have proven ONCE AGAIN that I haven't inferred wrongly, that you still believe pugs is not a place for teamplay to happen, continuously saying that people of different skill levels aren't able to work together and I severely disagree. From everything you've mentioned, pick up games do not have sufficient teamwork. But this only reflects on the players' capabilities to work as a team, and if you're saying its impossible for AF to achieve such pugs, that goes to show your view of AF pug players. I'm not satisfied with this kind of pugs in our community. The focus on people PLAYING THE GAME not to specific rules, and not something like making TEAMPLAYS MORE EFFECTIVE, through voice comms in this case, is much more troubling to me. You're disallowing players to play a part of the game, because pugs aren't capable of handling it. So when the time arises and they play matches say AFC, they may have to deal with said classes, or probably highlander. Which part of their TF2 experiences are they going to use to figure out how to play with or against them? Public servers? Work experiences? lol? In a recent scrim I played, a local team(formed recently and barely scrims) vs another local mix team. It was a stomp with voice comms available for both. We ran spy, sniper, pyro and mess around like idiots. A skill level difference? Most likely. But even when we're off-classing like crazy, there should be at least a fighting chance, right? Not one bit to me. My team doesn't even remember what was the purpose of that scrim. I've always wanted to know, What have you guys learnt from pugs? Is it enough to play in a scrim? Why do local teams struggle to play against a mix team of foreigners? Why aren't our mix teams as strong as other regions? Do we lack talent? "SINGAPORE NO TALENT NEED MORE FT PREASE" Yes, I am an elitist, I do not deny that because that's how I got myself here today. Since gaming is my interest/hobby, I play every game to perfection whether FPS, MMORPGs or RTS. You want to define me in my wall of text that's fine too. Since this is about the community and the situation as it is from my view and mine only. But try to stay relevant to topic, it ain't all about me. If I wanted to snipe, I would just do it and get myself banned because honestly, after leaving and coming back to AF, you will realise that this community is growing at the slowest rate possible. Depressing for me, and I feel for the admins, not even sure if they feel worthwhile doing these, I applaud them for their effort. And since Natapon is a great friend IRL, I chose to come back to this game, enjoy myself while helping others out. I don't believe that everyone follows me regarding this off-class matter, but I'm pretty sure everyone wants to improve. If players want to learn how to play a class, public servers will be a great option. But to learn about a class in a match scenario, leaving it to scrims only is not going to be near enough. Playing a game daily but not able to experience all aspects of it isn't going to benefit anyone. Your argument to this is merely giving the majority an easier time in pugs. Will they improve? Sure, playing a scrim per week and absorb what they can from pugs, or look for a mentor. Probably only the first will apply to most when pugs, as they are now, can only do so much. And people are too "shy" to look for available mentors. (/wave) Even with available mentors, they don't ask for more help beyond the first few questions. /facepalm As much as you're trying to be logical and helpful, if you think I'm arguing for the Elite Four (Got to catch' em all!) only, you're quite wrong. My current mentees have no scrim footage and relies solely on pugs for experiences. I feel sorry for them when they told me their last scrim was close to 2months back. I'm looking forward to helping everyone as a whole, and by allowing off-class to players who can abuse them well, it can significantly improve someone's playstyle. Agree or disagree? Your own preference. Quote "I propose for us to consider the converse. If off-classing is allowed in its entirety and there are no restrictions, will this then boost us up up and away from the bottom of global tf2?" Since when is taking a step going to bring you to heaven? I hope you aren't that naive. But I'm glad that you can agree on the fact that we're at the bottom of the TF2 scene. Progress is everything in development. Are you helping out with the community? Have you seen the improvements of players from few years back? Lets be honest, I barely see any. The same players are at lower divisions, the number of new players aren't even enough to replace the veterans that left. Certain veterans lost interest and their skills dropped tremendously. I've seen a couple of newcomers playing off-classes recently, and they are doing better than their teammates. This isn't saying the score is better or they have more kills. They are doing their job but the teams lost because they couldn't comprehend the situation around those off-classes. Of course, some got flamed as pug spoilers, others believe it was a difference in skill levels between the teams. If they all had a larger perspective of the game, which includes knowing those off-classes, those pugs would have gone way differently. Pugs, as it is now, and weekly scrims aren't going to be enough to get anyone close to Division 1, this is MY sincere opinion. Also, if you aren't striving to be in Division 1, I don't know how else to help you. Protecting newcomers and keeping the community peaceful through rules in pugs? I think you have no idea how rules have 0 effect on pugs already. I don't even know what you people are arguing about, it is as though off-classing (playing the game) is a bad thing, like turning on a lamp in a lighted room. What's the difference if admins kick/ban someone abusing off-class whether the rule is around or not? Needless off-classing is still going to happen regardless. Either totally remove the rule and deal with trolls only, or start banishing people who are enjoying the game, not following these rules you deem necessary. So rephrase with an understanding of what I had written as a whole, instead of taking chunks out to your liking because you should learn to read everything, not learn to read only. I'm pretty sure I'm not into literature, and this seems like basic English even to those taking as 2nd or 3rd language. TL;DR In a week, an average player (from our community) plays 5 pugs to 1 scrim. We should not limit what people can learn during pugs just because some trolls are abusing off-classes. This is where admins come in to deal with them.

Double standards have been around all along regardless whether on off-classing, picking or even making your own team specifically for a Division. People make choices to their own emotions. Who wouldn't want to be with the better players in pug or tournament? Who doesn't want to make big plays with the available 9 classes? Each to his own. You're specifically targeting off-classing because it poses as an issue to people, yet most of the arguments come from people that don't consistently pug. Pugs happen daily because people lack an opportunity to scrim with a busy work life or similar, everyone has their own schedules. If you want a scrim to happen everyday, you're in the wrong neighbourhood. Ask yourself, how many scrims do you play per week with your team in AF? Where is your team now? You speak of governments and their rules to keep peace among the majority, but this isn't a country. This is a bunch of gamers with an outrageous addiction to a game who wants to play during their free time and enjoy different views of it. Do you play a FPS game to see the same weapon everyday? Why do games like Battlefield 4 (HYPE TRAIN PLS) have a level system to attract players to improve and get new/upgraded weapons quicker? To me, it is all about reaching the next level of play. If I feel I've peaked in a class, and my next interest happens to be a utility, I'll probably never see the possibilities of playing that class here. #fml You say players lack communication to discuss simple team strategies? I'm afraid that people just aren't using the available option here. !MUMBLE in any AF server pls. Lacking of voice communication is the last thing here. Multiple guides for settings to in-game or mumble has been up for ages. This is why people aren't improving, they aren't experiencing enough team plays already. They are given access to various tools that allow TEAMPLAY. Instead of enforcing those, we want to dictate how people should play during daily pugs. Limiting players to specific classes, unable to relate viable styles which they may have accomplished elsewhere. There is no game plan required to perform these so called "off-class strategies", a player with a knowledge of how any class works would know how to utilise it for the team. That player, multiplied by 6, would be a team. If you're playing in a pug without the basics of the 9 available classes, kindly get the fuck out please. So what I infer from your view (Azazel) is that, pug is not a place for people of different skill levels to work as a team. This means everyone can play Solo Fortress 2 during pugs? I'm not sure if I ever won that game. If it is that hard to work as a team just because you're with people you do not know at that very moment, your work life is going to be MISERABLE. Sometimes no one wants to work with others, and pugs may be a way to chill and kill time or whatever. Every once in a while we encounter those. Specific veterans who continuously off-class during pugs should obviously be dealt with after stern warnings. However, there are some veterans who prefer to open up the game and not let pugs look like a stomp whenever they are around. It makes pugs totally meaningless for newcomers. What they learnt is a quick match of the difference in skill level. So with that said, should veterans never be allowed to play pugs? Personally, every pug I've gone to these days is a stomp. (not even trying to show off here, my demo list is taking up to 4GB) If your argument is still on the fact that our community isn't capable of this, then when? Are we really intending to be at the bottom of TF2 globally? (insert okay.jpg here) @Aycan Whining may be more informative than bitching. Not saying that either of them is correct, but at the very least I point out people's mistakes instead of talking about their moms

Now to the topic of our community: Are they able to handle these off-class situations? I don't think it's too much to ask for. It is as simple as the idea of demo rolling out to mid, and a scout (who reaches 2nd/3rd to mid), looks out for him first. Yes, we are behind in terms of many qualities required to play TF2 as competitively as other regions, even quantity is a problem for us since we are considered small. Can't even pool together enough decent teams to make an interesting LAN event. That doesn't mean we should not regularly improve ourselves to be adaptive. The game is old enough as it is, so for us to make games continue to be interesting (since valve isn't doing much except making boxes for us to buy keys), new style of gameplay is probably the only option. I can only recommend that players have to prove they are capable of handling an off-class, before they be allowed to use it more frequently than other players. But definitely not just running off-class the entire game, which I doubt anyone has ever done in a regular pug. If you're at the level of performing with an off-class during pugs, I'm pretty sure you know when you should or should not off-class. This may sound a bit harsh on players who hasn't acquired that skill level. However, I'm hoping for them to look as if it's a goal to work towards. So here's another point that may help our scene: Recognition This should be given for players with a special or different skillset, be it frag videos, AFL achievements or even regular pug star players. Because in this community, people are so introverted that when pros offer help to the public, very few bothered to take these rare opportunities to improve. Perhaps our pros don't look as impressive as those from other regions in our community? Maybe we're lacking publicity? We can seek help from tf2.tv for our major tournys but that's about it. We have to work for ourselves to be known. So if you guys really want to help this community to grow, I hope... no I implore you, the community, to get your shit together, improve your gameplay and if you have time, make a video or two, spam the shit out of our media section.

Accepting and also blacklisting people who aren't following up "

So now why do you think TF2 isn't as successful as other games? Too easy? Too cartoon-ish? I feel its just too plain because its been dictated to have specific classes only in competitive. Yes, its proven that such classes may be most effective. But when a team works differently, offering another element to the game, it makes the opponent rethink strategies. With that saying, isn't it the same if an off-class is capable of taking down certain classes better, and the problem being you guys aren't able to adapt to this and play accordingly? Common scenario, a scout not defending his demo on rollout. Demo blames scout, but can't defensive sticky. ANOTHER scenario, scout not denying roaming soldier. Combo blames scout. Where did all that MGE airshot skills go? I can list multiple scenarios for core classes, if played well of course everything succeeds. But often enough these ugly situations happen even when said classes are played. Now here's one for utilities that people can perhaps play off: Scenario spy, spy to mid, wait for pick, team denies(not kill) roamer/scouts and protect med, spy kills med or crucial player. Push with uber to mid and probably ends the round in their favor if played right. Too hard? I don't think so, looks a bit challenging, a risk for greater reward imo. There are so many scenarios where an off-class in a team can excel if players knows how to work around them, but rules are set here so people are inclined to follow, afraid to experiment options or have not been introduced to other possibilities. A great example from a recent TF2 competition, Immunity fared decently with an off-class sniper. Why? Of course in an FPS game, everything is down to the moment. Everyone bitch and whine when they die or lose. If you're playing any class and you suck so badly, you deserve to be fucked by some awesome typing skills. If you're an off-class player that is doing his job, EVERYONE KEEPS QUIET! But once you lose a round or two, people starts whining like a baby. Can I fuck those demos that want to demo but fails roll out? Can I send scouts to MGE when they fail to duel other scouts successfully? Can I kick players that are new to pugs, offering 0 contribution to every fight but trying to learn? Just because someone is better playing another class, means he can't play others? If you fail a couple of rounds off-classing, you should switch. If teams are even and game is still ongoing, what the fuck are people arguing about? Must you be ahead from the start til the end to win the game? No. Do comebacks happen? Everyday. TL;DR IT IS NOT HARD TO WORK WITH AN OFF-CLASS. BROADEN YOUR PERSPECTIVE OF THE GAME FFS.

You people are busting this poor man's post about rolling to spectate in pugs. I've posted my view in another area where it is relevant. Here's an addition, the community is stagnant as shit, veterans are getting too old to wait for newcomers to grow the fuck up. Offering help to people with only a couple taking things to the next level besides just a few questions, and they go back to being the shit they were shortly after. No particular names to mention, you know who you are if you're even on this forums. Off-classing or not, you can ban players from AF, even veterans. I myself would probably find another game to play and just play public anyway. Pugs are shit in quality all the while if you're at div1 level, I make things interesting for myself(and maybe to some others) to win the game in another way. I'm sorry that we're losing 2-3 rounds after 10minutes of game, and you think we can't win just cause I sniped half the game. Perhaps I should have played soldier and we win 5-0 in 10minutes. I learned one thing from a game designer recently, he created the classes for FF14. When haters complained that a class, known as warrior, couldn't be a tank he was designed to be, he told them LEARN TO PLAY. The next week, a team with a warrior cleared the end game. I'm not saying I'm Naoki Yoshida, but here's my plea to you people. "Bitch I'm a fabulous sniper...." I mean.... Learn to play with other classes..

This is an interesting conversation. Here's my view. There are plenty of players who contribute way more by abusing off-classing situations, sometimes performing better than others playing their "main" classes. Shall we make it a point to kick those who cant contribute as well? That's how I feel this is being dealt with. "Oh you're playing sniper to mid?" *snaps 2 headshot kills, team carries on playing and wins the round. *A few rounds later, maybe a headshot or 2 but no kills at mid. Admin Kicks~ Dafuq? Whats the difference if a demo rolls out to mid and gets 0 kills? Can we votekick him please? TF2 is created with 9 classes, not 4. There are players who are capable of multiple classes, recognise them as an asset. A player should know their limits when it is time to off-class or not. Learn to play with or against off-classes. If you're not at that level, you should keep off-classing to the minimum. But EVERYONE should know how to play TF2, and how all 9 classes works. For whatever reason you don't, you're probably in the wrong server, and there are dozens of public servers for you to go to. Please explain the point of stacking pugs and making the game so one-sided, playing all so seriously, taking the map 5-0 in 10mins? Who wants to watch the Finals of AFL that plays 2 maps of 5-0? One team raping the other, completing the series under 30minutes? Fucking boring please. If you enjoy such tragedies, I feel for you. Yes, winning is everything you should yearn for in a game. Adding some flavor into winning makes it all the better. TF2 is getting boring for many because people with low skill level aren't improving, not seeking help, or just wants to remain there for unknown reasons. The "rest" of us just keeps dominating those we call "noobs", I personally don't feel fun winning so easily anymore. Please go ahead and weed out all these people just because they aren't playing the game you want them to. I apologise for my bluntness towards players who aren't at a competitive level, but pugs are made for people to experience the gameplay of classes in a "match" scenario, unlike public servers.

yeaps.. do me a favour and remind me how I should play tf2 while looking at your mistakes.. lets go~ holiday week ftw

bump this thread, am still willing to help out newcomers... please don't go pug games looking like noobs and give yourself a bad name to start off in Asiafortress (:

I'll be happy to stream for the locals if people can't get good connection to the twitch servers that are overseas (wherever teamfortress.tv will be streaming from)

recording your pov is your responsibility, you can re-add once you got the demo ready.

The couple of you that added me since the start of this topic, if by now you have not given me a demo (that isn't laggy) for review, you'll be removed by the end of this week. I shouldn't be the one asking you for demos to review.

I blame tharnos for that... since until now I still haven't gotten my CD because they are out of stock.

Yo people, for those approaching me please get some demos ready. Scrims if possible, otherwise, pugs with your best performance. Don't want to fill my friend list with strangers and will remove/ignore without warning (: More than half of you added me with questions but no demos, I can answer them, but it is best with a "case-study" provided. F.A.Q How to improve my aim?! FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF~ T_T My way of training aim is probably different from most of the players I know, which is MGE. I think MGE is very 1v1-ish and in most matches, you don't get much opportunities for that to happen. HOWEVER, MGE 's aim is by far the simplest way to take down players which leads to an advantage in most TF2 matches. Personally, I prefer going to public servers with a ton of players, play the class you want to train and kill as much as 15 in one respawn. Through this method, you'll encounter all sorts of ridiculous situations that requires you to think on the spot. You'll learn not to rely on Medic for heals (because you'll most likely have none), look for your own med kits and most importantly, understand the capabilities of each class. In time, you'll know how to deal with a jumping soldier, a sniper half the map away or even a pocket heavy combo as scout. I hope you guys don't just ask me questions and put them into practice.

All I saw was Immunity bickering during boot camp.....

carrydice~ #teamplz =_=

I've spoken with a couple of you, for those that have added me on steam, feel free to discuss your difficulties playing scout through pm. I can also come on AF mumble. Would like to help more Division 2-3 people and push you guys to Division 1 standards in hopes that our PUGs will be more exciting. #scout4carry #scout4life (:

I don't think anyone is "2low lvl". I started 1 month of TF2 before I was pushed into Division 1. Its how quickly you can pick up the game.

I'll pass on the beta, I prefer to experience the game when its out fully. I will probably play it since i'm a big FF fan so let me know which server you guys are on.

I was anticipating it but found out that it wasn't available legitimately in Singapore a while back. Has it changed?

i like how the muzik goes "cho cho"