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Bob

rolling to spec in pugs

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I just came back to playing tf2 yesterday and was looking forward to some pugs after so many months. I got chosen in the first map but i wasnt chosen in the second map.

 

Most of the time it would've have been fine by me as I'm not a good player, just an average or below average player. If i were the medics, I wouldn't choose myself either unless I have to.

 

The second map had just 12 people in the pug and we then rolled to spec.

 

Then 2 people (not saying who, don't want to target anyone) came in after the rolling and got picked. One of them typed !join and got into freepick while the other spammed !replace non-stop till he go picked. Me and another guy quit the server when this happened.

 

I know players like me won't get chosen most of the time unless we're +1 ( However, I still remember two medics skipping their picks because it was just me left in the +1. Made me sad. But whatever )but I really wanted to play as I was playing with friends and waited for 10+ mins for enough players to gather in the first.

 

I might be in the wrong but this is just an honest opinion. Im sorry if i offended anyone but I just had to say this. Im just really depressed. :(

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there's another issue with the rolling system too i think? not sure if its just me but the last few times i rolled the plugins detects that i've rolled ( ___ has rolled safely!) but then i don't actually go to spec and end up as medic capt. been happening only since yesterday.

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That's why I don't play in Mokee's anymore. You can be +1 in there and not get picked. I think we should have an extra section for those who join after rolling and those who roll late excluding the +1s (last 2 rollers) because frequently picked players/players with a medic as their friend will almost always get picked so to hey can just lay back, relax and join after the roll while still getting picked.

However, the only problem I see with this is that it isn't friendly to the players with a slow internet as they take longer to join and will happen to not be in the free pick section and end up in the didn't roll section.

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in the end a solution with a flaw would come up from someone, and still overall its up to the medic's kindness to pick the ones who should get picked. Its just reality lol.. there wont be a perfect solution.

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Ah this problem has been around since forever.. like bio mentioned there'll never be a perfect solution and it's really up to the medic to be courteous enough to pick you.

 

I have a pretty shitty com and when i finally connect to servers not only have the players rolled but there's like 4 players a side so i rarely get +1 :S

 

Also pls play on AF servers no offence whatsoever to mokee but the pugs that happen there are offclass shitfests on who can pointblank hs scouts or get a airblast reflect airshot and whatever else...

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Ah this problem has been around since forever.. like bio mentioned there'll never be a perfect solution and it's really up to the medic to be courteous enough to pick you.

 

I have a pretty shitty com and when i finally connect to servers not only have the players rolled but there's like 4 players a side so i rarely get +1 :S

 

Also pls play on AF servers no offence whatsoever to mokee but the pugs that happen there are offclass shitfests on who can pointblank hs scouts or get a airblast reflect airshot and whatever else...

 

The offclassing problem gone worse since nata removed the rule so we're closer to mokee's now?

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The offclassing problem gone worse since nata removed the rule so we're closer to mokee's now?

Yeah, Nata shouldn't have removed the rule IMO. It was difficult to enforce but enforcing it nonetheless is still viable, maybe in PUGs where an admin is present. Especially in lower level PUGs, where it's Mokee PUG part 2. Trolling is fun and all but the lower level players who can't perform in high level PUGs tend to want to play in a PUG their level, but offclassing there can be such a pain and nobody voteban/kicks the player. The only way the lower level players could get a semi-serious PUG going sometimes is probably during AFA. After that we get players rolling pyro to mid.

 

This is another of my flawed solutions but it would be nice to have an admin to prevent these things from happening in low level PUGs. Seems that all the admins play in mostly high level PUGs and I just don't think all admins can play TF2 that frequently to check on the lower levels.

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And another reason for why all admins play high level pugs is because, all admins are practically div 1 (most at least). Introducing some admins in the lower divisions that can be trusted wouldn't hurt in my opinion. Then again, with all the off classing that the new people have been doing in pugs, it's hard to trust any of them lol.

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***This post represents my opinions and mine alone. I do not speak on behalf of AF***

 

In my view, offclassing is a situationally valid strategy. In a time where Valve has expressed interest and is trying to push 9's into the competitive community scene because of its diverse use of classes, and Valve also stating that 6's may be a bit stale to watch, I don't know why we should lock or limit ourselves into a fuckin narrower strategy pool by disallowing off-classing. I've begun to use ETF2L's newest unlocks in my pug servers (more pyro unlocks etc) and it looks like pyro could be used as a viable class now. It's always good to mix up shit instead of having the same stale standard 2 solly 2 scout 1 medic 1 demo.

 

So.. all the current whining I see about 'offclassing' in the AF pug svrs is more of a 'player skill' issue from the complainer than a server issue. You have problems with the offclasser? Work together with your team and rape his ass with teamwork and skill. More often than not, offclassing is a negative setback to his own team, so learn to exploit that to your advantage and sooner or later, he'll be forced to switch to a standard class.

 

If there's a problem of a troll offclasser or stubborn sniper offclassers (I know some of you would like to see these ppl named and shamed publicly), get all the players in your team and the other team to be vocal about it maybe instead of being non-confrontational? Doing this approach would be much better in the long term since all the players will see how much of a scumbag/douchebag the offclasser is, and if an admin ever kicks/bans him, that will be double the humiliation on him.

 

With the above being said, you'd have to learn to spot the difference between a really casual pug and a 'normal' one I suppose. If someone wanted to experiment tactics or whatever by offclassing for a whole pug and warning his team in advance about what he's gonna try, he is free to do so, isn't he?

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I think you may have gotten me wrong spammah. I myself have nothing against off classing. Why not? Even if your running sniper to mid, if your middles are not working out with standard cookie cutter classes then it is a valid thing to do.

 

My point is that having admins in the lower division will most certainly be helpful when the pugs are only just filled with the new ones. However, my view is that currently it's common to see heavy, pyro, and spy in these pugs, sometimes even with 4/6 of players in a team off classing. Just gives me the impressions that they treat this as a pub server, and thus can't be trusted with any admin rights to help guide the new ones.

 

 

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offclassing is so useful. i see people offclassing in mge servers. 1 v 1 sniper, 1 v 1 spy, 1 v 1 pyro, 1 v 1 heavy. i want to play mge in those servers against them so i can be more useful.

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Situationally, offclassing is useful to the team, in my previous scrim we roll pyro to mid and that helped us win, but when players ignore the teams plea to stop rolling spy/pyro/heavy to mid. Many PUGs I go to will have a player who rolls sniper to mid but even if he doesn't become a credit to team, he isn't blamed by the team for losing mid. But after awhile, if the strat doesn't look like it's working out after 3 mids, the player should heed the team's advice and go back to the normal line-up, he shouldn't switch to spy instead. That's the kind of problem I commonly face in lower level PUGs.

 

Used situationally, I don't mind having 2 pyros nd a sniper on last, but when rolling out or used for the whole match, it's really difficult to do well against an average team sometimes. ( The other team can sometimes just not care about votekicking/banning, sometimes because 'The guy is my friend)

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why is that even our problem honestly? If I will play sniper no matter what and there are no admins around what can you do about it? You want us to enforce rules that can annoy people who play "normally" just to make it harder for someone to be an asshole? Here's the solution: Treat pugs like pugs. Even in NA I promise you there is probably some asshole who will offclass like a nigger.

 

The only real issue I see is how people are so rigid about the meta-game. How do you have the authority to teach people how to play the game even when someone like Pyyyyyyour or Platinum have no answer? The truth is that the way we play works in the current meta-game but you shouldn't be surprised in the future when snipers are so good that one is ran 24/7, how can you blame sud anymore?

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Here's the solution: Treat pugs like pugs. Even in NA I promise you there is probably some asshole who will offclass like a nigger.

 

First of all, that is not a solution.

 

If anything, it is a mindset to adopt in order to be less bothered by a situation that otherwise irks you.

 

A solution would be something that pertains directly to said situation and affects a change and solves the issue at hand.

 

Although this was not the intention of the OP (Bob), once again the topic of off-classing in pugs has been reignited.

 

In before long debates on this thread which has nothing to do with offclassing, perhaps the moderators would like to close this thread, move the discussion elsewhere, or just ask the all important rhetorical question that makes no grammatical sense

 

------->

why is that even our problem honestly?

 

funny-pictures-the-amount-of-fucks-i-give.jpg

 

ANYWAY......

 

I respond because my very first post in asiafortress forums was incidentally on this matter.

You can read more walls of texts on the issue here:

http://asiafortress....__fromsearch__1

 

Also, I found the culprit who brought Bob's depressing story of not being picked after waiting for 10 long minutes that felt like eternity into a segway of Mokee <3 Offclassing.

 

Also pls play on AF servers no offence whatsoever to mokee but the pugs that happen there are offclass shitfests on who can pointblank hs scouts or get a airblast reflect airshot and whatever else...

 

Why Benny Why! :o

 

Let's take a stroll down the all important pathway of logic before diving headfirst into philosophical arguments because we all know....

 

Wanting to maintain quality leads to rules. Rules lead to enforcement. Enforcement lead to admins. Admins no enough. Admins might even ask the community "why is that even our problem honestly?" as if admins actually give a fuck right?!. I digress. Admins lead to double standards. Double standards lead to paranoia. Paranoia is a big word so I explain. You never know whether your offclassing situation is justifiable or not. Hence, paranoia leads to fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to HATE. Hate leads to SUFFERING.

fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering.jpg

 

 

Something like how Bob feels when he was denied his spot in a pug which he waited 10 minutes for.

 

While I have a knack for digressing because I posted this not to argue seriously as much as have fun making irrelevant references, I believe the point I am trying to make is[are].....

 

- This off-classing thing is not new.

- There are many grey areas and these grey areas are what makes this issue actually discussable.

- Enforcing these rules require RESPONSIBLE admins present. Are we in supply of them?

 

 

It is also very interesting that while long time asiafortress admin the great camel Spammah actually bothered to express his opinions as

***This post represents my opinions and mine alone. I do not speak on behalf of AF***

 

why is that even our problem honestly?

 

how-about-a-tall-glass-of-i-dont-give-a-fuck.jpg

 

I am actually rather concerned about who "our" refers to. Since there was no blatant disclaimer like Spammah, I'm unsure whether Shounic speaks on behalf of all asiafortress admins, some asiafortress admins, his asiafortress group of friends, or... um...

 

Every organization has a government. A set of rules, if you will. Rules lead to enforcement. Enforcement leads to admins. Blah blah blah Dark Side.

 

HOWEVER... [forgive the syntax] if the policemen in my neighbourhood tell me that " (A thief) will (steal) no matter what and there are no (policemen) around what can you do about it? You want us to enforce rules that can annoy people who live "normally" just to make it harder for someone to (steal)?", I will actually feel rather unsafe.

 

Moral of the story : Get responsible admins who are on the same page. Trust in them to police the AF servers. Pray they do not abuse powers (oh don't get me started *wink). Step 3 is likely to fail.

 

If all else fails, simply succumb to how uncannily Natapon looks like Yao Ming

 

1350341194173.jpg

 

And allow CHAOS IN ASIAFORTRESS SERVERS MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAA.

 

anarchy-no-government-like-no-government.png

 

- just another trololo post which has almost nothing to do with the OP's thread.

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Azazel natural debater. Expected no less from the tongue tornado.

 

But it is true, so many double standards. U have spammah who has nicely voiced his personal opinion that he doesn't mind valid off classing, while you have nata who is just simply against it majority of the time.

 

So who is exactly right? New comers and even some of the current puggers don't even know, get confused, get paranoid, feel unsafe, blah blah blah like Aza said, and eventually no one benefits.

 

And btw Aza, responsible admins do not exist in this world. Or at least they are so rare that you just can't find many anymore.

 

P.S sorry bob

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so

i kick snipers after warnings and warnings, u say i admin abuse/maltreat newcomers/fuckudiv1wannabe

 

i dont kick snipers and give them chance, explained to them why they ARE allowed to snipe because of the situation, u say why u no kick the shitguy/give u admin for fk/useless

 

how?

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there's another issue with the rolling system too i think? not sure if its just me but the last few times i rolled the plugins detects that i've rolled ( ___ has rolled safely!) but then i don't actually go to spec and end up as medic capt. been happening only since yesterday.

 

thats unfortunate of u, but still if u can press the spec button a little bit faster...

 

anyway

 

i believe this system nata developed has alrdy outcasted any existing pug system(medic fight +1 in mokee, scout fight +1 in ph, etc)

theres some guy today complaining about this bug or wtsoever in the afternoon and at night, and the time when i happened to be there, i kicked him becoz: 1. if u complain, dont play 2. trying to dodge med by trashtalking

 

my point is(not saying u but to all afl server users), we shud take note of wt we are having now, and stop complaining about shit that can never be fixed, or at least cant be fixed in the near future

 

LEARN TO APPRECIATE THE MOD BITCHES

 

ps. sorry guys my english is my 4th language i dunno wt im talking about

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so

i kick snipers after warnings and warnings, u say i admin abuse/maltreat newcomers/fuckudiv1wannabe

 

i dont kick snipers and give them chance, explained to them why they ARE allowed to snipe because of the situation, u say why u no kick the shitguy/give u admin for fk/useless

 

how?

 

First of all, it is really hard to please everybody. It really is hard. :o I mean, it is difficult to accomplish.

 

Your job as an admin is NOT to please everybody. Leave that to the whores (male or female whores, don't be calling me sexist here).

 

Your primary concern as an admin, is to administrate.

 

Wiki tells me that it is to manage and direct the affairs of an organization.

 

So do that.

 

At the end of the day, the onus is on YOU(the administrators) to maintain YOUR personal discipline in being fair about judgement calls.

 

We know admin abuse when we see it.

 

I recall fondly being kicked from a pug server when an admin was having a bad day and I was pushing all the wrong buttons on his hairy chest. We made up later with more mashing of chest buttons and it was all good.

 

The relationship between admin/community is a balance of give and take.

 

However, that relationship is NOT as important as getting the JOB done.

 

Be responsible. Get it done.

 

You can also read this book written by Terry L. Cooper.

 

51oWyCsMPhL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

 

 

Direct any other queries to him at [email protected]

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First of all, it is really hard to please everybody. It really is hard. :o I mean, it is difficult to accomplish.

 

agreed.

 

I recall fondly being kicked from a pug server when an admin was having a bad day and I was pushing all the wrong buttons on his hairy chest. We made up later with more mashing of chest buttons and it was all good.

 

sxxxxxh *cough* *cough*

 

anyway, what my set of rules is(or at least what im doing/trying to do/follow):

1. offclass to last is allowed (be it attacking or defending)

2. if u didnt switch back to normal class and pushed out with an offclass, ONCE is allowed, if u continue to do it, kick

3. when the team is winning 3-0 or more, u can offclass to mid (NOT FOR GRANARY GUYS RMB)

4. if u suck, i'd warn u once or twice, if u dont listen, kick, if u rejoin, kick again

5. if i think u are new(coz i hvnt seen u a lot of times/u need improvement on ur basic mechanics/well u r reli pretty bad when compared to others) AND u keep whining and talk shit, FIRST i'd gag/mute u, after a while i'd ungag/unmute u as im just trying to make u focus on ur gameplay, BUT if u continue to talk shit and stuff, kick

(thats all till now i think, if got anything new i'll postt)

^------ALL OF THESE ARE APPLICABLE IN PUGS IN THE AFTERNOON TILL 10PM

 

pugs after 10 pm i dont reli care coz:

1. mostly high end players come and play, if they wanna play seriously, high level pugs appear and no regulation is needed

2. if they wanna come and relax, just let them be i dont care, if they make the team lose, then lose

3. i think we players have alrdy had a consensus about a thing called 'late-night pug', which we all play for fun only

4. if u r a newbie and happened to be in one of these late serious high level pugs, and u happened to be offclassing, i'd ask u not to instead of WARNING like in the previous sessions, but if u r reli going too far, sorry but kick

 

its all about respect guys, if u dont respect urself, why do u expect others to respect u?

*******my opinion*******

nata removed this so-called offclass rule because hes kinda fed up with u all complaining nonsense shit so, take the consequences of ur own deeds

 

i'm listing these out coz i think im currently the most active pug admins to be seen around the server(?), if any other admins have an opinion about this pls say, its all about making shit work together

 

ps. i've alrdy lowered my standards to a very large extend, if u still think this is unacceptable, sorry pls head back to ur mokee inbreeding house

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This is a "to be fair" post.

 

 

I think you may have gotten me wrong spammah.

 

To be fair......

He wasn't referring to you broooooooooo.

 

huhne2.jpg

So.. all the current whining I see about 'offclassing' in the AF pug svrs is more of a 'player skill' issue from the complainer than a server issue. You have problems with the offclasser? Work together with your team and rape his ass with teamwork and skill. More often than not, offclassing is a negative setback to his own team, so learn to exploit that to your advantage and sooner or later, he'll be forced to switch to a standard class.

 

toooo beeee fairrrrrrr.... I think most people are unhappy when the off-classer is on THEIR team and the offclasser is not contributing. Sometimes he/she thinks that by getting 1 or 2 picks during a mid fight is worthwhile as a sniper, but the team might think a roamer or 2nd scout would be more useful.

While you are feeling good about yourself headshotting enemies, your team is dealing with pressure from a freely moving enemy team who need not deal with your roamer or 2nd scout. Your own team wipes, you get 3k and die a valiant death to almost ANY class that gets near you.

 

im_a_hero_lr.jpg

 

The irony being, that most off-classers (especially the snipers) are the veterans and they FULLY understand how they are putting their team at a disadvantage.

 

tumblr_m67ia90N3T1qe8qiyo1_500.jpg

 

toooo beeeee fairrrrr.... It is actually quite rare for newbies to be running pyro/heavy/spy/sniper to mid 24/7.

 

Please don't quote 11am pugs.

 

toooo beeeee fairrrr.... it is actually the veterans who think they are beast offclassers who are doing it 24/7.

 

Just putting it out there TOOOO BEEEEE FAIRRRRR....

 

my point is(not saying u but to all afl server users), we shud take note of wt we are having now, and stop complaining about shit that can never be fixed, or at least cant be fixed in the near future

 

LEARN TO APPRECIATE THE MOD BITCHES

 

to. be. fair.

 

this is forum. Forum for discuss. Also for complain. If no complain no discuss, then no forum. Also, qjyap report bug. Report good. Reporting help to make mod better. Press faster to roll to spec no make mod better.

 

Similar to something like this.

Here's the solution: Treat pugs like pugs. Even in NA I promise you there is probably some asshole who will offclass like a nigger.

 

This no solution. It no make things better. No report, no better. Only avoid. Bad. Avoid bad.

 

Nobody is taking the mod for granted. Maybe there are, but none of the sort was expressed here in this forum thread. Where did you ever get that idea?!

 

ImpliedFacepalm.jpg

 

I love the mod! (except when it bugs out then I hate it)

 

anyway, what my set of rules is(or at least what im doing/trying to do/follow):

....

ps. i've alrdy lowered my standards to a very large extend, if u still think this is unacceptable, sorry pls head back to ur mokee inbreeding house

 

2 B 4a|r.......

 

This is the most defined set of rules ASIAFORTRESS HAS SEEN on the issue of OFFCLASSING.... EVER.

 

WOW.

 

This guy here actually has guidelines even for timing.

 

Not everyone may agree with that set of guidelines but hey, at least its something right?

 

RIGHT????????

 

mlfw1113_YOUTRIEDFAGGOT.jpg

 

Meanwhile.... the big boss doesn't pug so much anymore so go ahead off-classers!

 

rottenecard_72647617_5f5vhv9fy4.png

 

just to be fair guys. just to be fair.

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let me give u guys an example happened few days ago

 

And and I(its not typo, im referring to my fellow Hongkie team mate And), happened to be in a pug in the afternoon/evening time, were playing badlands tgt with a well-known veteran k1infran. we 3 and Unker teejay happened to be picked in the same team and after the picking process, we all got our classes settled except for mr k1. as u all know, hes a beast scout so hes not so adapted to the class Pocket Soldier. AS the pug proceeded, he changed from the pocket soldier role to a pocket sniper, which of coz was doing absolutely nothing (i doubt if he did damage at mid)

so at first we were all letting him be, but then we were starting to lose and shit, we started to throw out biting remarks on mr k1, hoping he'd do sth normal. yet hes totally ignoring them, and since Unker teejay and the other team mates started complaining, so me and And decided to have mr k1 kicked, and he didnt joined back the server after being kicked so i presume he knew what shit he had done which caused the kicking

 

i'll put u thru my perspectives of an admin:

1. on one hand i dont wanna kick mr k1 coz hes my frd

-i know he comes to pug to relax as the pug is of lower level

-hes feeling bored because there are some new players on the other team/simply the team we r on is pretty stacked

-he has confidence in his aim and believed he can perform as well as he is a soldier as a sniper

2. on the other hand i need to kick him coz

-hes burdening my team

-ignoring our suggestions

-setting a bad example for the newbies

 

HOW TO BE ADMIN?

but in the end, I have And to do the kick process, so that we can ADMINISTRATE the situation and it wont harm my friendship with mr k1 that much(hopefully)

 

 

VETERAN being KICKED due to OFFCLASSING, fk double standards guys

 

ps. sorry mr k1 if u r reading this, we all still love u <3

but if u happened to be taking a few mentees pls (at least) be a role model urself IMO

 

AND PLEASE LET THE OFFCLASSING SHIT STOP KTHXBAI

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2 B 4a|r.......

 

This is the most defined set of rules ASIAFORTRESS HAS SEEN on the issue of OFFCLASSING.... EVER.

 

WOW.

 

This guy here actually has guidelines even for timing.

 

Not everyone may agree with that set of guidelines but hey, at least its something right?

 

RIGHT????????

 

mlfw1113_YOUTRIEDFAGGOT.jpg

 

Meanwhile.... the big boss doesn't pug so much anymore so go ahead off-classers!

 

 

u need to understand when the big boss is not doing anything except cooking curry, his juniors need to (try to) get things done

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i've lowered my standards when i come to pug to the point of catering to the standards in the pugs that were lowered by me. curry curry curry. grown tired of trying to push the pugs in the right direction. let the shit pugs begin... for now. eventually players will realize how little our local community has progressed as compared to our asian friends. if you want to see no government, look at the offclassing shitfest that mokees inbreeding house has become. tell me that the quality of players and pugs there are good and their new players have a chance at learning from the best we offer.

 

on another note, all my bans now are pbans. banned players can only appeal through these forums in official servers section. if you don't bother to appeal, i wont bother to unban. bannable offences include but are not limited to dodging medic, afk after committing to a pug, wasting time etc. don't let your unnecessary problems become everyone else's headache.

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