Azazel

1. you didn't answer questions i have asked you before

 

2. what are you still arguing for if we already know that?

Show me how we've made any breakthrough? So assume we take your idea, how have we come up with a solution to "STOPPING UNNECESSARY OFFCLASSING IN AF SERVERS"? I'm pointing how idiotically you've been trying to argue why playing another class could be bad and the argument would literally never end because both sides are true to an extent. k1 can just keep talking about how we should be able to deal with offclassing in pugs, and you would try and suggest how sticking to the main 4 is the best way to play tf2. How has this helped find a solution to the problem?? "oh playing a class other than the main 4 is bad, and here's why." okay....... but what did that fix? lol

 

FYI >>>>>> Summer agreed with k1, and the only real issue was how pug teams probably won't know what to do about offclassing, but you already saw k1's response to that..

 

then pinkie just says he thinks experimenting in pugs is dumb, okay. but what if the person isn't experimenting and is confident in his own offclassing abilities to carry the team?

 

But then you make another dumb blanket statement about how offclassing can hurt more than benefit. well it also can benefit more than hurt. lelelleellelelel great discussion at hand.

Read properly.

Summer elaborates on how team communication is important to make a strategy surround an off-class more effective.

Aycan elaborates on how you can keep off-classing away from pugs and within a fixed team because that is where you can really test new strategies out.

Shounic elaborates on nothing and digs himself a grave.

Whilst the rest of your posts revolve around how rules will not be able to stop every potential offclasser lelelelel....

WE ALREADY KNOW THAT.

RULES WILL NOT STOP EVERYONE.

TRAFFIC LIGHTS WILL NOT STOP ACCIDENTS FROM HAPPENING.

SOMETIMES SHIT HAPPENS.

But the traffic lights remain.

Okay I'm anticipating another rebuttal based on how traffic lights are a bad analogy... oh god no...

I have to create analogies for simpletons to understand what is actually obvious to all.

You know what?

Here... i'll provide you with a digital staircase.

Enter and never return.

3. Assumption e.g: (paraphrased) "a soldier is better than the sniper in x situation". Why are you so sure? There are so many situations where either could have been just effective as the other too.

Again, reminiscent of k1infran's perspective, I agree.

There can be many situations in which offclass>main class.

That particular offclass will, arguably, require some form of communication with the team in order to embrace and play around that offclassing strategy, and I refer to Summer's post above where he quotes panda as spy in Masterful.

So, if you still are unable to comprenderrrr...

Leave the adventurous strategies to the scrims where your teammates bear the brunt of your transgressions.

4. Have there even been an example of where a new player thought it was 100% okay to offclass a lot after seeing someone else do it and he then proceeded to do the same?

In before stating examples, even if newcomers would somehow be impervious to seeing veteran offclassing and thus feel like wanting to try it when they are not ready... the issue still stands that adventurous offclassing is something that not everybody on your PUG team will agree to.

An example is Halu/Andrew dealing with a pocket soldier offclassing to sniper.

need I bring up the qjyaps and mamamias and yoogs and xilvers and tharnoses to solidify the existence of this problem?

The fact that I need not state solid references stems from the fact that this issue is already widely recognized in the community which is why natapon had to instill such an offclassing rule in the first place and place it in the MOTD.

During that period in time, players were truly unable to enjoy a pug game when new players/veterans blatantly come in and offclass.

off-classing to mid: no, i don't care who you are

necessity is situation dependent. why do you need to offclass in the first place?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but this did not come from nowhere.

hi.

 

1. a solution is "a means of solving a problem or dealing with a difficult situation." So dealing with the problem by ignoring doesn't fit? lol

 

2. by simply just settling for kicking people doesn't that simplify the problem and would cost less than thinking of new rules? What kind of rules will you impose if you were given the power then?

 

3. your analogy don't have the same impact.... This is just a video game, 99% of the time it won't actually significantly impact you.

 

Let's compare stealing to off-classing.

 

stealing is enforced today, because

 

-> stealing sucks. And most of the time, people who do steal, will steal something (or multiple things) that in total are valued highly. if you are the victim you MAY be seriously affected by it in some way. For example, you might lose your job, you may get paid less. comprender??????

 

-> people have ESTABLISHED that the majority dislike stealing. so ALL forms of stealing is unacceptable.

 

off-classing doesn't really apply because

 

-> yes it sucks, but it's an issue you can brush off. So the worse it can ever get, a worst-case scenario is one where literally everyone is off-classing except you right? How does this even BEGIN to compare with things that COULD happen as a result of off-classing? Are you really going to kill yourself because pugs are ruined? (Please do). Most of the time people come to the forums to bitch about it. Acordar?

 

-> We have no even established what the majority want from pugs, and off-classing as a result of that. I'm not asking you to try and reason what the answer may be. I'm asking not you specifically, but for the community to make a decision together so WE CAN ACTUALLY COME TO A REASONABLE CONCLUSION. It's no use guessing what the community wants, acordar???????

 

comprender??????????????????????????????????????

No.

Don't take the analogy of stealing too seriously. I can easily substitute it for flashing, sucking balls, wiggling bottoms, eating oranges, or being retarded like Shounic.

The subject matter is the RULE itself, the motivation of the RULE, and NOT the off-classing, or the flashing, or the sucking balls, or the wiggling bottoms, or the eating oranges, or the retardation of Shounic.

Now let me get back to no.3 and no.4.

Also, at least change the font when you paste from a website. (edit : oh good you changed it. good for you!)

Oh wait before i forget...

1. a solution is "a means of solving a problem or dealing with a difficult situation." So dealing with the problem by ignoring doesn't fit? lol

Shounic : well... technically speaking... ignoring is dealing with a situation... so.... that is solving the situation right?

I really like this one it really gets me abit mindfucked.

2. You have not even addressed the problem; all you did was say how silly it could be then go on about my own spelling mistake. You've also demonstrated no understanding in why I even mention the difficulty in coming to a conclusion. No matter what you say, you still haven't fixed the problem because how will you actually enforce it? There's difficulty in that for one, but the main point is that nobodyy who is in position to actually change anything on the servers have said much, thus making the debate quite endless. There are so Many undefined variables too.

I think the forum, as a platform for discussion, is an environment for participants to discuss and through this discussion move progressively towards the formation of a solution and/or better ways to deal with any issue being discussed.

If you can truly understand the debate as it is, you will NOT see its endlessness, but instead be able to see whatever salient points are being made and later be able to contribute to the discussion.

The act of slamming the lid on discussion because, well, "you are assuming too much", or "you can't enforce this", or "its too difficult", or "nobody in charge is here", or "there are too many undefined variables!", stifles any form of pushing towards a plausible end point or debate.

Learn to read, understand, and consider how things can be valid, instead of deeming everything you don't understand as invalid and impossible to set into motion.

As much as this sounds like something in favour of the off-classing situation, because well... pyro/engineer to middle is something we deem invalid at the moment, I invite all adventurous offclassers to put this to the test extensively in your respective teams.

In the next season of AFC or Merc Cup, let us watch that finals match when engineer walks to middle and builds a sentry gun.

Once that works out, let's revisit introducing this as a viable strat n opening things up to pugs!

Just because Pikachu does not want to emerge from the pokeball does NOT mean discussion should cease.

Just because there is no active conclusion at this current moment does NOT mean discussion should cease.

Discussion with others or oneself is the basis of breakthrough.

The earth was never always known to be round.

Oh yes, I nearly forgot.

There is a difference between situational and 24/7 off-classing, and 24/7 offclassing can hurt the team more than benefit it, especially since pugs lack communication, a consistent skill level, and thus teamwork.

Sure having an offclass is viable but you must have a team that plays around those strats. Masterful used to have the threat of panda as a full time spy and that worked out because we could go all out aggro on more cautious enemies. Im protects sheep really well but then he never fails to pick off targets..

You're right to say that offclassing at certain times is viable to mix the game up but do you think pug teams know how to adapt to it?worse is that news sitting in spec would try to replicate without understanding which is the cancer of most pugs these days. Sorry my phone is crap lol

as for using pug to experiment off classing is just plain retarded autally using pugs to experiment ANYTHING is retarded it only helps you for pugging if you really wana experiment to win just get a fix team and do it there wont be any bitching or what not

For more information about my stand on off-classing(which is me addressing the problem at hand many times with images and colors), please scroll up and read. Like really, read.

Maybe reading won't help you.

Maybe the problem is you.

This is no assumption.

Okay okay, since you've begun to dig that grave I shall give you a friendly push into deep grave.

1. Point out to me: at what point have you told me and proven to me how my opinion of how to handle the situation is 100% invalid.

Here's the solution: Treat pugs like pugs. Even in NA I promise you there is probably some asshole who will offclass like a nigger.

First of all, that is not a solution.

If anything, it is a mindset to adopt in order to be less bothered by a situation that otherwise irks you.

A solution would be something that pertains directly to said situation and affects a change and solves the issue at hand.

Invalid because nothing is solved. Invalid because nothing is handled.

hi, it's simple. I'm trying to say that, basically it's going to take too much effort to be worth trying to fix a problem like this.

Also, while you go on and on about how enforcing rules against offclassing can be "so difficult" (for the lack of a better word since you tend to use confusing language), please explain more.

RIGID, across the board rules with no exceptions or clauses littered with protocol and whatnot... that can be hard to implement.

How the earlier issue was dealt with by Andrew and Halu, being admins in the server, who observed how shit went down and kungfu kicked the perpetrator into oblivion.

Was it really that hard?

Responsible admins. That's all it takes. No need for colourful rules, just responsible admins who can make judgement calls and a community that can trust in them.

Invalid because you do not explain how enforcing off-classing rules are not "cost effective".

Invalid because you are here claiming how enforcing off-classing rules are unjustifiably difficult, when our admins are in the servers enforcing off-classing rules in real time.

It wasn't that hard.

Ignorance at its best.

This is the basis of my point; since most players actually don't needlessly off-class, why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three people? To put it simply, the fruits of the labor don't seem to cover the cost of the labor, plus the issue doesn't happen often, so you could probably ignore it.

Invalid because, given that your fruits of labor vs cost of labor comparison spontaneously combusts, this issue cannot and will not be ignored.

Halu/And's example is only one of the mentioned cases.

Invalid because....

"This is the basis of my point; since most (people) actually don't (steal), why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three (thieves)?"

Must I spoon feed you?

Normally people don't flash on the streets... why bother creating strict rules against flashers?

1 down, 3 more to go.

The reason I've stopped arguing is because ??there's so many assumptions that?? you're not even proving my points wrong but just throwing more assumptions into the argument.

I'm sure plenty of readers disagree, but meh you can hold on to whatever illusion you wish to cling to.

Also, more comprehensible format please.

I hate to get all grammar nazi on you but I really can't understand most of what you are trying to say without feeling like I'm in secondary school doing English Paper 2 and staring at a comprehension passage.

Even then the passage is vetted for grammar and syntax.

It's okay I've done it before... let me try.

That's why before you post more images I suggest we establish what we can all unanimously agree (or close to that) what we expect and require out of pugs.

Okay, point taken.

General understanding: Majority of players(div1 players who play in asiafortress pugs are as rare as the dodo bird) actually want play the game with cookie cutter classes because most of us have not yet peaked in our main classes.

Exception: Rare few players who claim to have peaked in their classes and wish to enjoy their game and do not like it that they are restricted in a pug.

I would also like to point out that those players who were enjoying themselves in said offclass was exposed to some violent kungfu style kicking.

That could not have resulted in agreement from teammates and/or admins.

At this point, I think we can agree that at least a few of us here are on separate ends of the table.

There is no agreement but only a decision to be made from the pikachu that hides in the tall grass.

There's different ways to approach the problem that you can't necessarily confidently say which one is superior or not. They're different ways to fix the problem, but the fact that everyone plays pugs for different reasons makes it pretty much impossible to come to a conclusion, plus the fact that nobody with real power has stepped in so it doesn't even matter who won in the internet slap fight, I doubt you will even take action nor significantly influence anything.

This here is all fluff and your teacher would take a red pen and cancel out the entire portion before crumpling up the paper and tossing it back into your face, which is pretty much what I'm doing here now but only in an online version that has no crumpling and tossing involved but only imaginary crumpling and tossing.

"There is no right or wrong and I agree to a certain extent"

Take a stand, make a point, say something contributory.

DERP.

Lastly...

What assumptions have anybody made again?

You mean CETERIS PARIS?

Coming from somebody who wants to ceteris paris, I find it slightly ironic that you are uncomfortable with operating under certain assumptions that somehow is the reason you are not "arguing".

If you want to allege that somebody is making assumptions about your assumptions that assume he is assuming something that should not be assumed...

Back it up.

Don't assume that the readers of this forum are stupid, ill-informed, and/or will take what you say at face value when you make statements like "you're making x assumptions" when you can't even substantiate your argument/assumption.

Back it up.

Why are my posts gargantuan? I take the effort to substantiate and back things up. Also I like to post images because its nice.

I strongly suggest you scroll back a few pages, read the posts preceding this one, read it, read it again, read it one more time, let it swirl around in your head, conceptualize your argument, find the right words to say and say it carefully, because somebody is going to pick those mistakes apart.

If you won't/CAN'T...

then take the flight of stairs I offered you in my final post that lets you exit graciously and STOP digging your own grave.

Honestly the issue is that everyone has different expectations out of pugs. Nobody's right or wrong but in the end we should just settle this by asking the highest of power how he wants pugs to run. Hcaz?

I personally feel that this debate has gone to no where since our interference, it is barely helping to see the light at the end of this tunnel after reading all that has been discussed. This shall be my last post regarding this topic, I'll leave the decision to the ones in charge.

Well, duh, of course only the one in charge can make any changes to anything.

It has been that way interference or not.

If anything, this discussion has brought to light several things.

1. Players' position/perspective/motivations regarding this off-classing matter.

2. Players who are good at being keyboard warrior but bad at clicking faces

3. Players who are good at clicking faces but bad at reading, writing, and explaining themselves.

4. Players who are plain retard.

5. Players who can't see the logic in retards.

6. Players in army now so need to use phone to reply.

7. Players who own ice cream shop and call everyone retard.

8. Players who don't read but agree anyway because he is fanboy retard.

9. Players who own the server and try since day 1 but so tired don't want try no more.

10. Players who must do shit while owner cooks curry.

11. Players with dwindling mobile data plan who wants to read but usage gonna exceed.

12. Players who used to fight for off-classing but now are in repentance and wishes for KLOC.

13. Indian who says nothing that contributes to anything.

14. Also the rest of the players who are secretly reading this thread to have a good time with walls of text but can't be fucked to reply with their own opinion on the issue because they just don't want to get involved.

I've had a great time!

All of you

<3

Allow me to clarify.

Differently skilled players = different mindsets and varying game sense, and also different levels of dm.

That is how it affects teamplay.

Even in a team, communications are VITAL to executing intricate strategies and calling out focus fire.

In a PUG, with these different mindsets and varying game sense, communications are even MORE important for ANY form of proper teamplay.

Also, the average level of our players in PUGS are far from the average level of players in Korean/Taiwanese/Japanese/HK mix teams.

You have proven ONCE AGAIN that I haven't inferred wrongly, that you still believe pugs is not a place for teamplay to happen, continuously saying that people of different skill levels aren't able to work together and I severely disagree. From everything you've mentioned, pick up games do not have sufficient teamwork. But this only reflects on the players' capabilities to work as a team, and if you're saying its impossible for AF to achieve such pugs, that goes to show your view of AF pug players. I'm not satisfied with this kind of pugs in our community.

No.

This discussion was focused primarily on whether 24/7 offclassing should be allowed in a PUG situation.

I don't think a PUG SHOULD NOT have teamplay, neither do I think it SHOULD NOT be possible for teamplay to exist/improve.

Pertaining DIRECTLY to off-classing, I FEEL that pugs are NOT the right environment to allow for 24/7 off-classing at the moment BECAUSE of how PUGS are.

PUGS will ALWAYS be PUGS, in a sense that, there will always be a lack of communication compared to scrimmage, and that skill levels and game sense will be varied.

Even if you fix communication, PUGS will NEVER be at a consistently higher level as long as there is a division between pub - div 3 - div 2 - div 1.

PUGs are not conducive enough to perform team strategies ala your own team as an ENVIRONMENT.

It has nothing directly to do with the players in AF.

Don't infer incorrectly. Don't Shounic.

In short, don't argue with the concept and fundamental meaning of a Pick Up Game.

For higher level play, please ditch girlfriend, spend less time with family, or SIMPLY MAKE TIME.

The focus on people PLAYING THE GAME not to specific rules, and not something like making TEAMPLAYS MORE EFFECTIVE, through voice comms in this case, is much more troubling to me. You're disallowing players to play a part of the game, because pugs aren't capable of handling it. So when the time arises and they play matches say AFC, they may have to deal with said classes, or probably highlander. Which part of their TF2 experiences are they going to use to figure out how to play with or against them? Public servers? Work experiences? lol?

You don't practice for AFC matches in a pug, you do so with your team in scrims.

So no, not public servers nor work experiences.

Feel free to ditch girlfriend, spend less time with family, or quit tf2.

Feel free to also lol?

Amidst this non-logic, i can make out a little bit of a point.

Do we, allow off-classing in its entirety so as to not deprive our elite players of certain interesting gameplay options?

OR

do we, allow situational off-classing so that our new players can understand from example how cookie cutter classes are most effective, and our own seasoned pug players need not suffer losses at the hands of ineffective players attempting these interesting gameplay options.

How about: DO IT IN YOUR TEAM (MAKE TIME FOR IT)

Pyro to defend spire? Run engineer to badlands middle even. DO IT IN YOUR TEAM.

If you're that busy and can't find time, maybe you're at a stage in life where you need to move on and live a real life, and also convince your tf2 community that offclassing 24/7 should be allowed in pugs because you can't find time to scrim.

Nobody should have to deal with your case of wanting more interesting gameplay options at the cost of their own pug experience, which may very well incorporate wanting a roamer/scout on their team, just because you can't find teams to scrim against.

I don't believe that everyone follows me regarding this off-class matter, but I'm pretty sure everyone wants to improve. If players want to learn how to play a class, public servers will be a great option. But to learn about a class in a match scenario, leaving it to scrims only is not going to be near enough. Playing a game daily but not able to experience all aspects of it isn't going to benefit anyone.

Your argument to this is merely giving the majority an easier time in pugs. Will they improve? Sure, playing a scrim per week and absorb what they can from pugs, or look for a mentor. Probably only the first will apply to most when pugs, as they are now, can only do so much. And people are too "shy" to look for available mentors. (/wave) Even with available mentors, they don't ask for more help beyond the first few questions. /facepalm

While I appreciate the sentiment, and I do feel you are genuine in the respect of wanting to help,

I find it hard to believe that opening the floodgates on off-classing will have a direct correlation to the improvement of our community's skill level.

I think it is safe to say, that most new players have a main class. Playing in pugs will give them the opportunity to practice this main class. Including the option to go sniper/pyro/engi/heavy/spy will not make that player any better in his main class. If anything, now he has more options to explore than before and will be less focused on practicing his main class.

I understand that the same can be said for off-classes, and that the wannabe pyro will not have the opportunity to practice pyro to middle in match scenarios.

I think most players can agree that a bad scout/soldier> a bad sniper/spy/pyro/engi/heavy

Enough said.

Quote "I propose for us to consider the converse. If off-classing is allowed in its entirety and there are no restrictions, will this then boost us up up and away from the bottom of global tf2?" Since when is taking a step going to bring you to heaven? I hope you aren't that naive. But I'm glad that you can agree on the fact that we're at the bottom of the TF2 scene.

No no no, I did not agree. Refer to the "If" at start of sentence.

The correlation between "allowing off-classing in its entirety" and "the standard of play in our asiafortress community" IS NOT APPARENT.

PLEASE DON'T DIRECT YOUR OWN SHOW WITHOUT FIRST ESTABLISHING THIS CORRELATION BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE YOUR PREMISE.

Allowing off-classing in its entirety will NOT make our scouts/soldiers/demomen/medics better.

It will only encourage more off-classing to occur.

We will have MORE snipers/pyros/engineers/heavies/spies, which will make our community more diverse with new main classes in 6v6 tf2, but not necessarily BETTER.

MORE is not BETTER.

Unless......

I think you have no idea how rules have 0 effect on pugs already.

Actually, I beg to differ.

You actually got kungfu kicked into oblivion after off-classing to sniper from pocket soldier.

That was some effect.

I don't even know what you people are arguing about, it is as though off-classing (playing the game) is a bad thing, like turning on a lamp in a lighted room. What's the difference if admins kick/ban someone abusing off-class whether the rule is around or not? Needless off-classing is still going to happen regardless. Either totally remove the rule and deal with trolls only, or start banishing people who are enjoying the game, not following these rules you deem necessary.

So... since needless off-classing will happen anyway.... we should have no rule?

HOLD ME BACK GUYS.

I strongly suggest you scroll back a few pages, read the posts preceding this one, read it, read it again, read it one more time, let it swirl around in your head, conceptualize your argument, find the right words to say and say it carefully, because somebody is going to pick those mistakes apart.

There has been no blanket ban on offclassing.

Situational off-classing is very much acceptable to even out uber disadvantages.

If you are enjoying your game by making 5 other players want to kungfu kick you into oblivion, then you should be banished.

At the moment, we can only rely on the dwindling few responsible admins we have in AF to help us deal with players who have peaked at their class and remain stubbornly off-classed even when told by teammates but still seem to find ways and means to toss smoke bombs around the intention to offclass by suggesting that allowing 24/7 offclasses will make the game more interesting and improve the quality of the community's gameplay when we all know the real issue is the enjoyment of his own game as an offclass.

So rephrase with an understanding of what I had written as a whole, instead of taking chunks out to your liking because you should learn to read everything, not learn to read only.

HOLD ME BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK....

I would like to end off with this beautiful image.

HAIIIIIIIIIIIII YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Some people have a certain skillset: interpreting an argument from walls of text and then being able to express his/her opinions in a coherent format and contributing to a discussion that is constructive while being objective.

That is obviously NOT your skillset.

Don't throw big words around that you can't handle.

You should stick to clicking on people in video games.

Here's how I've felt about your posts so far. I think YOU (Azazel) are not comprehending the current situation at hand. People ARE playing off-classes because it's part of the game. However, others aren't able to cope with an off-class in the team, or unsure of how to play against it.

Let us begin talking about some classes here, considering all are played by the same person who has peaked in the different classes.

Not going to list every class, but I'm looking at these options, and I think a team could use one of each. And I would be glad to have a sniper putting bullets in faces while I'm in the front line, similarly to other classes depending on their gameplay. Obviously, no one knows what classes are the best for all situations. This all comes down to the player handling not only the class, but also the situation. He/She also should bear all consequences should the outcome turns ill.

No. You are NOT comprehending Summer, Aycan, or myself at all. What is the current situation at hand?

The current situation is... and since you fail to comprehend I shall explain further...

There is a difference between situational and 24/7 off-classing, and 24/7 offclassing can hurt the team more than benefit it, especially since pugs lack communication, a consistent skill level, and thus teamwork.

Sure having an offclass is viable but you must have a team that plays around those strats. Masterful used to have the threat of panda as a full time spy and that worked out because we could go all out aggro on more cautious enemies. Im protects sheep really well but then he never fails to pick off targets..

You're right to say that offclassing at certain times is viable to mix the game up but do you think pug teams know how to adapt to it?worse is that news sitting in spec would try to replicate without understanding which is the cancer of most pugs these days. Sorry my phone is crap lol

as for using pug to experiment off classing is just plain retarded autally using pugs to experiment ANYTHING is retarded it only helps you for pugging if you really wana experiment to win just get a fix team and do it there wont be any bitching or what not

I highly suspect that you are reading any of the posts in this thread before posting your own and claiming that others do not comprehend you.

You can list 101 what-if situations on how a team can play around an off-class.

WE AGREE THAT IT MIGHT WORK.

WE DISAGREE THAT THIS SHOULD BE DONE IN PUGS.

Address that and stop reiterating yourself.

You say it is their problem that they don't have time to find scrims because busy with life etc. So here we discuss about helping people out with only cookie cutter classes during pugs, what about the rest of the classes? Does it really boils down to how bad you want to play as a team to get scrims for REAL match experience? Are we able to get scrims that easily in this community? Same question as my previous reply, how many scrims do you even play per week in AF? Why did you join an Australian team then? When you went to join an Australian team, how dedicated were they to finding scrims even in Division 2? This is the hard truth and you know it, those commitments don't exist HERE. Aussie scene provides regular scrims 3 days per week, try doing that with teams in AF lol.

You were a mentee on my list, and you barely knew how to deal with "cookie cutter", not even going to talk about off-classes. You approach other options besides AF to play/learn the game. Do you perhaps feel that this community has nothing left to offer? Why do other scenes seem more dominant in quality of players? Maybe because they are able to afford scrim time every few days?

Scrims are hard to find because your team is not commited and that is a problem, I understand.

Aus scene/other scenes are more active, I understand.

Is this then relevant to how we should allow/disallow anything in pugs?

NO.

PS. there is a difference between wanting different perspectives on the game and "feeling this community has nothing left to offer".

That sounds like a problem you want to solve by saying:

"It all boils down to how much you want to play in a team." Shit if it were that easy, I'm probably a volcano with boiling magma inside me by now. Perhaps ditching my girlfriend, not spending time with my family and skipping work/studies so I can be playing video games? Not everyone has the capability to commit a specific timing to scrim. Fixing a schedule for 6 people isn't easy, least to say 12.

Huh. Aus scene can do it. Global scenes can do it. If anything, the lack of scrimmage in our community is what is, in your own words, causing us to be at the "bottom of global tf2".

If the rest of the world can do it without "ditching their girlfriends, not spending time with family and skipping work/studies", then why not you?

You special?

So here's my solution:

Why not spend the time during pugs to learn not just "cookie cutter", but also teamplay along with other classes? I don't think everyone's absorption rate is that low, especially from someone like yourself, coming up with all these pictures and colors to a thread discussed only by a dozen. Picking up more than 4 classes during pugs doesn't sound that hard considering there are only 5 more others.

One thing at a time. One class is already giving me trouble. I am no genius, and I also speak on behalf of possible new players in the scene.

Also, this is no solution to the problem of having no time for scrims.

Don't do a Shounic.

It's as if allowing 24/7 off-classing in PUGS are a SOLUTION for your inability to find SCRIMS to offclassing 24/7.

Our priority here is not YOUR scrims, its OUR pugs.

Keep that in mind.

Your 5 teammates should not suffer the consequences of your bad off-classing while they are trying their best to win a game.

Not every sniper is "fabulous", and to open this box is to unleash Pandora's jewels upon the world.

Do it with your team.

Teams were scrimming weekly or even more during AFC season, just in case you didn't know.

Is mumble up and running 24/7? Yeah, only if there was a chick then I'll hop on. JK~

Is voice in-game available in all servers? Pretty sure it is.

Your comprehension here is a failure, you summarised the paragraph into one sentence. When I said lacking of voice communication being the last thing to worry about, I meant the options that allow voice comms are always available. Obviously if someone were to mention teamplay along with the lines of communication, do you think anyone would believe those aren't equally important?! I even referred !mumble being the crucial key to communications.

Sorry, your word choice can prove challenging for most to begin the process of intrepretation.

I apologize.

BUT SERIOUSLY NOW....

How could this:

Lacking of voice communication is the last thing here.

not have been misleading?

People don't comprehend you because you are incomprehensible.

I'm going to put this so simple for you, so you read the following paragraph instead of thinking too hard into my reply earlier k?

Off-classing is out of the option if teamplay isn't possible, teamplay isn't possible without communications. But hey, we have communications(mumble/in-game), we can make teamplay. Then BOOM, off-classing is now viable?! But since we aren't making comms a requirement, we should just ban all other actions that probably needs teamplay, and teamplay needs comms. Okie dokie?

I'm sure you already know, but off-classing is also "out of the option" because it hurts the team in the opportunity cost of changing from soldier/scout to particular offclass.

Communication is the way a team will bend over backwards to make that off-class work in a scrim situation.

I refer to Summer's post regarding how cookie cutter classes are most effective from 2007-present day.

Also, my response to your quote was mostly based off how the failure of enforcing an earlier rule, is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a new rule should be enforced.

Quote "People in PUGS are unable to work together as a team because there is a lack of communication(even though !mumble and voice chat exists) and teams will almost never be consistently skilled and even if consistently skilled teamwork will never be at the level of scrimmage (That's the way pick up games will always be in any team game)"

So what if pug teams are never consistently skilled? What does it have to do with coming up with teamplays? Are players not supposed to treat each other as teammates in pugs?

So what if communication during pugs is not on the level of teams in scrims? Is it necessary for a team to be fully communicative to achieve teamplay? I wonder how those Korean/Taiwanese/Japanese/Hongkong mix teams are doing in OUR AFC.

You say players lack communication to discuss simple team strategies? I'm afraid that people just aren't using the available option here. !MUMBLE in any AF server pls. Lacking of voice communication is the last thing here.

Okay let's take a look at this.

Yes, players lack communication in simple team strategies BECAUSE they aren't using the available option.

DUH. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

However, lacking of voice communication is NOT the last thing here.

If anything, it is the FIRST and MOST important thing.

Team Fortress 2, not Solo Fortress 2(in your own words), and thus communication is what forms the basis of that notion.

Instead of enforcing those, we want to dictate how people should play during daily pugs. Limiting players to specific classes, unable to relate viable styles which they may have accomplished elsewhere.

Okay here is where I wish to point out a major concern.

Allow me to rephrase your quote: Since we have not yet enforced strict voice communications in teams to allow for more teamwork, how can we dictate how people play during daily pugs?

Take a moment. Read this. Soak it in. How does this make ANY sense?

Since an earlier rule was not properly enforced... how can we enforce this rule pertaining to offclassing now?

HUH?!

If your argument is still on the fact that our community isn't capable of this, then when? Are we really intending to be at the bottom of TF2 globally? (insert okay.jpg here)

I propose for us to consider the converse. If off-classing is allowed in its entirety and there are no restrictions, will this then boost us up up and away from the bottom of global tf2?

I think what this directly affects, is that

YOU will be able to reach the next level of play, because YOUR interest happens to be a utility.

YOU will find the meta-game interesting now.

Just quoting you directly and not deducing/infering/conjuring anything.

Should we not maintain an environment that is encouraging of our new players to learn the fundamental cookie cutter classes of tf2 in ASIAFORTRESS pugs first, before they move into their respective teams to experiment with off-classes and make that frag video he/she was talking about, because ASIAFORTRESS pug servers are for a community of players, and not just for the elite few?

Whining may be more informative than bitching. Not saying that either of them is correct, but at the very least I point out people's mistakes instead of talking about their moms

This post is excruciatingly long because there were plenty of mistakes being pointed out.

No mothers were insulted in the process of creating this wall of text.

Cheers to the off-classing discourse!

Double standards have been around all along regardless whether on off-classing, picking or even making your own team specifically for a Division.

Anticipated this being brought up, and I agree. No argument here.

Pugs happen daily because people lack an opportunity to scrim with a busy work life or similar, everyone has their own schedules. If you want a scrim to happen everyday, you're in the wrong neighbourhood.

Pugs happen daily regardless of whether people lack an opportunity to scrim.

There are plenty of puggers with no teams and thus no opportunity to scrim whatsoever.

Also, players with teams will find time in their busy work/school schedules to participate in scrims/matches during AFC/merc cup/competition period.

It all boils down to how bad you want to play as a team.

It's not anybody's fault other than yours if you are unable to find scrims.

Being the elite player who has peaked at his class, I'm sure you will be able to find scrims to play.

It is people like myself, who still have much to learn, who has to worry about being able to find a team.

I am getting fat. It takes 30 minutes to have a good run(roughly how long it takes for 1 map). I have 24 hours a day. I used to tell myself "Where got time to run?". Do you?

Get to running fatties!

That aside, not being able to scrim because there are X difficulties does not justify opening the floodgates on off-classing in PUG servers anyhow.

You speak of governments and their rules to keep peace among the majority, but this isn't a country.

Governments do not pertain specifically to countries, but also to organizations. I think it is not a stretch to term asiafortress as an organization and a community.

To me, it is all about reaching the next level of play. If I feel I've peaked in a class, and my next interest happens to be a utility, I'll probably never see the possibilities of playing that class here. #fml

That doesn't mean we should not regularly improve ourselves to be adaptive. The game is old enough as it is, so for us to make games continue to be interesting (since valve isn't doing much except making boxes for us to buy keys), new style of gameplay is probably the only option.

There is no game plan required to perform these so called "off-class strategies", a player with a knowledge of how any class works would know how to utilise it for the team. That player, multiplied by 6, would be a team. If you're playing in a pug without the basics of the 9 available classes, kindly get the fuck out please.

You might not have intended it so, but it seems as though if off-classing is not allowed in asiafortress servers...

YOU will not be able to reach the next level of play, because YOU'VE peaked in a class, and YOUR interest happens to be a utility.

YOU find the meta-game boring and YOU wish for games to continue to be interesting.

Correct me if i'm wrong, because this sounds like an incredibly self-centered, egocentric and elitist perspective.

I refer once again, to what I've quoted time and time again because nobody reads my lengthy posts:

2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic MIGHT be stale gameplay for some of you veterans out there, but asiafortress is a community built to not only provide an environment for veterans to play, but also for newer players to learn about competitive play.

For newer players, 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic is a FRESH, NEW format to play within as opposed to the 9 class public server spam fest.

It seems as though you're leaving the bulk of my argument out of your rebuttal, and instead infer(conjure up) various irrelevant tangents that truly confound me.

Here are some examples:

So what I infer from your view (Azazel) is that, pug is not a place for people of different skill levels to work as a team. This means everyone can play Solo Fortress 2 during pugs?

What they learnt is a quick match of the difference in skill level. So with that said, should veterans never be allowed to play pugs?

If your argument is still on the fact that our community isn't capable of this, then when? Are we really intending to be at the bottom of TF2 globally? (insert okay.jpg here)

If you can't infer, please don't infer. Don't do a Shounic.

People in PUGS are unable to work together as a team because there is a lack of communication(even though !mumble and voice chat exists) and teams will almost never be consistently skilled and even if consistently skilled teamwork will never be at the level of scrimmage (That's the way pick up games will always be in any team game)

So what I infer from your view (Azazel) is that, pug is not a place for people of different skill levels to work as a team. This means everyone can play Solo Fortress 2 during pugs?

I hate to say learn to read... but dude

Also, no... nobody has said anything about veterans not being able to play pugs...

Just that veterans should not be off-classing blatantly, 24/7 or not, when situations demand for a soldier/scout instead, thinking they can get away with it.

Unlike you, i give credit where credit is due and I recognize that you agree with this notion.

Specific veterans who continuously off-class during pugs should obviously be dealt with after stern warnings.

as for using pug to experiment off classing is just plain retarded autally using pugs to experiment ANYTHING is retarded it only helps you for pugging if you really wana experiment to win just get a fix team and do it there wont be any bitching or what not

also it helps to click on face and not on walls!

The reason you don't see xilver, yoog and astatine around is because they were banned. For offclassing.

edited my post before you replied. They were dealt with AFTER the issue blew up. They were left alone for a good amount of time. I know because I was there.

Upon further recollection, I'm sure the veterans (not limited to the above mentioned 3 players) were having fun offclassing, especially when admins were not around or when admins were their friends and decided to let it slide.

When newer players who did not have such a relationship with admins started to offclass, they were punished immediately.

This was how the double standard issue was brought to light.

It was only after a flurry of forum posting that resulted in action taken against some(only a few) veterans.

A certain ex-admin running pyro to middle is an example not unknown to frequent puggers.

Just saying

Allowing for special rules to apply to special people who are recognized = double standard

Double standards make for drama and an unhappy community.

Of course life is unfair, double standards cannot be avoided, deal with it, blah blah blah (im anticipating rebuttal coming along these lines).

Not too long ago we've had sagas of this double standard issue (qjyap banned/mamamia banned, Xilver/yogurt left to their own off-classing devices but were dealt with much later after issue blew up)

So before everyone forgets, people are NOT okay with double standards.

They may not be vocal about it on this forum, but it exists.

Just saying.

Sure there are plenty of scenarios how off-classes can be made to work in a team which is made to play around those strategies.

Sure having an offclass is viable but you must have a team that plays around those strats. Masterful used to have the threat of panda as a full time spy and that worked out because we could go all out aggro on more cautious enemies. Im protects sheep really well but then he never fails to pick off targets..

 

You're right to say that offclassing at certain times is viable to mix the game up but do you think pug teams know how to adapt to it?worse is that news sitting in spec would try to replicate without understanding which is the cancer of most pugs these days. Sorry my phone is crap lol

I agree with Summer here.

PUGS mean different things to different players of different levels.

It is precisely because it is a random PUG team, with players of different skill levels, also with the lack of communication, that makes it close to impossible to pull off a TEAM strategy that revolves around certain off-class play.

Even with communication, simple team strategies can implode (I say this from personal experience).

In order for an off-class based strategy to work, even for a team of 6 that have been playing together constantly, a game plan must be devised and put into motion several times before the team can pull off said strategy and be effective.

I seriously doubt a PUG team without communication(or even with communication) can do that.

Your offclass is working, MORE because the enemy team is unable to counter you, and LESS because the class itself is viable.

 

It has more to do with the PLAYER than the CLASS.

 

Well, is this because offclasses are viable?

 

Maybe, but MORE because the player is able to make use of the offclassing effectively.

 

Now, in a scrim you can take these risks(if your team is in agreement) because your own team suffers the consequences of winning/losing.

 

You may trust the judgement call of your teammate to offclass pyro to middle because you know for a fact he has practiced airblasting in public servers and dodgeball servers to the extent he can minicrit airshot reflect soldiers 100 percent of the time.

 

That's all good, in a scrim.

In a pug, however, not everybody is agreeable to offclassing.

I don't trust this other guy running an offclass 24/7 because I don't have to.

 

I think if anything the argument should be whether or not PUGS should be the playground for experimentation and whether we are ready for experimentation at high level/low level pugs.

 

If the issue at hand is that offclassers who aren't good at that offclass insist on offclassing(yes that's a mouthful), then leave outrageous offclassing to SCRIMS and let teams willing to embrace extraordinary strategies deal with the consequences.

It seems like the prerequisite of making an off-class EFFECTIVE despite its liabilities of the lack of scout/roamer is TEAM strategy and accomodation in other aspects.

In that case, it requires a TEAM like communication and discussed tactics.

A pug, is no place for this. Teams are decided within 3-5 mins (thanks to afl plugin), and the game begins promptly.

Want to try new off-classing strategies that challenge the "stale" metagame?

Talk to your team about it, come up with a wonderful strategy, and do it in a scrim.

Let your own TEAMMATES bear the consequences.

Let's face it. If you're objective in off-classing is to TEST how it can work with a TEAM backing your off-classing strategy with an alternative game plan, then you NEED a SCRIM ENVIRONMENT to do so.

Doing it in a pug where you KNOW for a FACT your team is going to be made up of randoms just does NOT make the case for "testing out new meta-game with off-classing".

I know for a fact that off-classers to middle don't make ANY effort to tell their teammates to hang back, wait for his picks, ask for players to call medic/demoman locations, or ANYTHING.

If the argument is being made that it is possible for "off-classing strategies" to develop as long as there is teamwork in making the off-class effective, then ALL THE MORE these off-classing strategies CANNOT be implemented in PUGS because it is too difficult to achieve a baseline for teamwork where there is no voice communications, and players are possibly selected from a wide variety of skill levels.

Just in case some of you guys out there misunderstand, I'm not saying that I disagree with off-classing and that it should be disallowed on the whole.

What I'm saying is that there are specific reasons to off-class that pertain specifically to uber advantage or disadvantage, and off-classing during those situations are definitely acceptable.

However, I'm sure many of you have seen situations where your team has full uber advantage and is waiting to push in to last only to realize one of your respawning teammates came back as a sniper after suiciding for no reason.

Yes, we have ALL seen this in pugs.

don't let your unnecessary problems become everyone else's headache.

I may be taking this out of context abit, but I refer to unnecessary problems as "the need to run 24/7 offclasses".

Also I think it would be near ridiculous for AF to have a new policy of having a ticket to off-classing.

Off-classer : I am legit sniper.

Admin : where's your frag video? show me.

Off-classer : http://www.youtube.com/iamgodsniper

Admin : you sure that's you. prove it. STEAM id?

Off-classer : ...

That doesn't mean we should not regularly improve ourselves to be adaptive. The game is old enough as it is, so for us to make games continue to be interesting (since valve isn't doing much except making boxes for us to buy keys), new style of gameplay is probably the only option.

2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic MIGHT be stale gameplay for some of you veterans out there, but asiafortress is a community built to not only provide an environment for veterans to play, but also for newer players to learn about competitive play.

 

For newer players, 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic is a FRESH, NEW format to play within as opposed to the 9 class public server spam fest.

I think we need to look at asiafortress and TF2 as a game not only from a "i've played this game for so long and I'm bored" point of view, but also from the perspective of our community as a whole which includes all levels of players instead of just the elite players.

Finally we get some real conversation going.

I'm sorry that we're losing 2-3 rounds after 10minutes of game, and you think we can't win just cause I sniped half the game. Perhaps I should have played soldier and we win 5-0 in 10minutes.

I'm not saying I'm Naoki Yoshida, but here's my plea to you people.

"Bitch I'm a fabulous sniper...." I mean.... Learn to play with other classes..

 

Anyway in 6v6 there was never an intention to have "utilities". The cookie cutter classes are what they are BECAUSE they have been proven since 2007 - present day to be the most effective in the most fights. Sure you backstab or hs a medic at mid, but that one less scout leaves your flanks wide open and your team gets destroyed because they don't have that extra useful class which draws enemy fire, denies jumpers, harasses, and whatever other shit the scout is supposedly capable of doing.

 

Unless you're a sniper that can constantly quick scope 150-dmg enemies, air-hs jumpers and just basically aid your team, then carry on. Just remember that you gave up your roaming/scout responsibility (which are easier to achieve aim consistency) to benefit your team, so don't do it just for personal glory because nobody gives a fuck about your p-rec bookmarks which will appear in the frag movie that you'll never make.

 

Just remember this: People always say play to have fun, but think, is losing fun? Don't screw up the game for people who try to play the game seriously just to boost your own fucking ego.

Ding ding ding~

im sorry for posting this thread, guys. I didn't mean to cause any of this argument and hate to occur.I feel bad.Really sorry.

Hey hey hey, chin up young fella.

This isn't a bad argument!

This is for the benefit of the offclassing discourse!

After all, my hug should count for something right?

If I might be so bold as to request something of utmost importance, I might ask that all of you vote; for me.

 

I will say anything you like so long as you vote for me; there is nothing I cannot promise you.

 

Good morning.

i vote for you.

make us some curry please.

bad offclassers make the world mad.

shounic has proven himself challenged in various areas.

also, pick bob.

We're getting to the point where we're arguing about semantics and word choice....

Given that meaning/logic/argument/discussion in this format here on a forum can only come from well, "semantics and word choice", I'm pretty sure you're above statement is you somehow trying to absolve yourself from not making any sense.

When you don't make sense in a place where you are trying to make a sensible, logical, argument, you basically fail to make ANY salient points.

I can see you are putting those skills you learn in school to use here.

ceteris paris

I didn't even have to catch you first.

Unless you've invented some new Latin phrase that refers to the capital of France, OR, I have to do your thinking for you and perhaps suggest you change said phrase to "ceteris paribus" instead.

Normally, secondary school economics essays are uninteresting, undemanding of creativity, and most of all, driven by logic(and many graphs) to prove nothing but pre-determined outcomes you've learnt in your textbooks.

Little boy, if you want to be uninteresting that's okay. Just make sure you make sense.

When you want to pug, assuming ceteris paris, one of the first things that will probably influence your decision is the player quality. Generally AF has better quality of players, yes? And generally, Mokee's has lesser quality of players, yes? Well then, assuming off-classing is one of the criterias you use to judge player quality, it's probably true that mokee's pugs will have more needless off-classing, right? I haven't played in mokee recently so I'm just going off what people have established, but assuming that's also true.... Let's look at it again. AF, has relatively less cases of needless off-classing, right? Plus, the three cases I've mentioned, all three of them are above average snipers. So even if needless off-classing happens, it's potentially less of a problem, yes? This is the basis of my point; since most players actually don't needlessly off-class, why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three people? This goes back to "it's probably going to get in the way of things anyways so what's the point?". To put it simply, the fruits of the labor don't seem to cover the cost of the labor, plus the issue doesn't happen often, so you could probably ignore it.

Oh god help me out here.

I implore ANYONE in asiafortress reading this right now to help interpret this chunk of jibberjabber.

Okay I'll try. I'll try.

RED - player quality is the variable between AF/Mokee, generally AF>Mokee in player quality

ORANGE - Mokee more needless offclassing than AF

YELLOW - AF has less cases of offclassing

GREEN - Shounic names sud/mel/k1infran (orh hor you name people, orh hor...) as above average snipers.

PURPLE - Rules against offclassing will only really affect these 3 cases. Enforcing rules against offclassing is insurmountable task. You could probably ignore it.

First of all, AF player quality varies depending on the time of day (kids, school, afternoons, evenings, you get the picture)

Honestly, we SHOULD NOT even make the assumption of player quality in Mokee's or in Asiafortress in the first place.

Why?

Anyone can join any server during any time of the day.

I've seen AF players on Mokee's. I've seen pubbers in AF.

Real hard to ceteris paribus this one in the real world interweb.

BUT... just to let your ceteris paris arrive in France... let's just ASSUME your premise.

The purple portion is what disturbs me the most.

If you have not already read Halu's post, he refers to one of your named examples in a situation where players felt that their pugging experience was compromised and 24/7 sniper was a liability.

So no, you cannot ignore it.

"This is the basis of my point; since most (people) actually don't (steal), why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three (thieves)?"

If living in the real world hasn't taught you anything about governing rules, then it is that rules are put into place for the protection and the benefit of the MAJORITY.

Brain transplant may help you in the near future.

Also, while you go on and on about how enforcing rules against offclassing can be "so difficult" (for the lack of a better word since you tend to use confusing language), please explain more.

RIGID, across the board rules with no exceptions or clauses littered with protocol and whatnot... that can be hard to implement.

How the earlier issue was dealt with by Andrew and Halu, being admins in the server, who observed how shit went down and kungfu kicked the perpetrator into oblivion.

Was it really that hard?

Responsible admins. That's all it takes. No need for colourful rules, just responsible admins who can make judgement calls and a community that can trust in them.

Anyway, a simple 1 line response to your failure to understand why I brought up NK and Africa is sufficient.

When you compare it to an issue like hunger.... The same logic doesn't really apply does it? let's try use the same sort of logic on a subject like starvation(?). I am not even sure what could be wrong with feeding more people. It could be bad, it could be good. Plus, it's not really something you can ignore. As the government / whatever other position of power above the government, it is your job to ensure everyone is fed, and that's a basic right to life... These people are also getting paid to put in that effort.

It wasn't about starvation, it's about you bringing up a worse scenario vs a bad scenario and saying that there's no need to complain about it.

Don't take it down the road of no return man... I'm sorry I brought up something you couldn't understand, I really am...

These people(governments) are also getting paid to put in that effort. So you're trying to say that AF, a free service, should also put in as much effort to make sure pugs are good?

Well, don't be assuming anything I've said. My professional courtesy as trollmeister has been to work mostly off of your quotes and fails, so please let's not be rude shall we?

I'm not saying a free service should put in AS MUCH EFFORT as a government.

Let's not get into how much effort goes into governments and their countries because we know governing NK, Africa and USA can make a hell of a difference and I'm sure you might not want to jam more information into a head that cannot explain himself in a public forum just yet because you might need a little more time after reading this.

I think if you're doing volunteer work at a charity centre (yes I said it. Asiafortress is like a charity center since our admins don't get paid and Natapon pays for our servers), you wouldn't want to do a shit job. I'm not saying the AF guys are doing shit jobs, that's not what I'm saying man!

What I'm saying is... just because you are providing a free service doesn't mean you should not go the distance.

It just means you are not obligated to.

If right now, Halu/Andrew and any other admins who have been policing the servers come here and say that enforcing offclassing rules are not worth it, then we will have some testimony that actually stands for something.

On the other hand, Shounic, whom hasn't been doing any enforcing of offclassing rules, comes here to state how said enforcing can be "difficult".

Many can even testify to your voice-chat complaints about people on your PUG team being "useless snipers" and not "contributing". But let's not go there.

We have admins(some) that actually care and are willing to go the distance to enforce rules that could be difficult, but are not obligated to.

Life is good

then here's where you tripped: I mentioned the meta-game because our judgement of what's right and wrong is purely based around a meta, except even the meta is undecided, so how do we know for sure what's right and wrong to do? But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

There's also no point picking at the fact I used the word undecided. The point is that tf2 as an e-sports hasn't been around for as long as something like counter-strike. CS you can say with some confidence that the meta-game will probably never change again. TF2, not so much, yes?

Let's get this straight.

Undecided in quote 1 - undecided in a sense that you will not know what is right or wrong. In other words, undecided in a sense that nothing is defined and any kind of strategy is plausible because, hey, Platinum and Pyyyyyyour have no answer!

Undecided in quote 2 - undecided in a sense that things might change later.

Don't try to change positions midway in a forum post. I'm not stupid.

I'm anticipating an attempt to turn this around by dictionary definitions of how undecided = not decided yet = can be changed in the near future = it MAY change next time = i am right you are wrong.

Am I psychic or what?!

If anyone is trying to worm their way out of looking stupid by making use of....

we're getting to the point where we're arguing about semantics and word choice....

It's you.

There is actually alot of material to pick apart but I'm getting a teensy weeny bit tired of trying to interpret misspelt secondary school economics jargon, rhetorical questions that lead nowhere, and a blatant lack of humour and colourful pictures(because humour is what gets you an A in your essays. true story!).

I can only pity the teachers in your school marking those abysmal essays.

- I'm sorry for making you look bad Shounic. I really am.

why is that even our problem honestly? If I will play sniper no matter what and there are no admins around what can you do about it? You want us to enforce rules that can annoy people who play "normally" just to make it harder for someone to be an asshole? Here's the solution: Treat pugs like pugs. Even in NA I promise you there is probably some asshole who will offclass like a nigger.

 

The only real issue I see is how people are so rigid about the meta-game. How do you have the authority to teach people how to play the game even when someone like Pyyyyyyour or Platinum have no answer? The truth is that the way we play works in the current meta-game but you shouldn't be surprised in the future when snipers are so good that one is ran 24/7, how can you blame sud anymore?

hi, it's simple. I'm trying to say that, basically it's going to take too much effort to be worth trying to fix a problem like this. It's already a lot better to settle for the current quality of "most of us actually try to do well and contribute to the team in a pug" with occasional people who don't care. When you compare AF to mokee you wonder why you should still complain.

 

then here's where you tripped: I mentioned the meta-game because our judgement of what's right and wrong is purely based around a meta, except even the meta is undecided, so how do we know for sure what's right and wrong to do? But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

I think ANYBODY can see a world of difference in what you're saying and how you're saying it in these two posts.

Well, to be fair, post number 2 could be a clarification or an expansion on post number 1 after some very fallible points were pointed out.

Also, to be fair, hedwig didn't mention anything about "the meta-game" or question your bringing up of "the meta-game".

Thus, to be pointing out how she's tripped, just doesn't make any sense.

If anything, you've tripped over your own internet feet, rolled around the entire internet track, just to somehow suggest that hedwig's made some sort of mistake.

No she didn't. Maybe in her initial interpretation of your post but we've cleared that up already.

C'mon man.

Don't bring up mokee's man.

It's like telling the North Korean's they got it good under them Kim Jong's cos those African kids are starvin' to death man.

Doesn't make it better man.

vs

Now let's get to the real issue.

then here's where you tripped: I mentioned the meta-game because our judgement of what's right and wrong is purely based around a meta, except even the meta is undecided, so how do we know for sure what's right and wrong to do? But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

Our judgement of right and wrong is based on the meta-game.

One of those great epic motherhood statements that are just so fluffy and nice to roll around in like a nice warm blanket of "a statement that is obvious and I say it because I can never be wrong".

The meta-game is like the "social influence" in tf2, where our infants(new tf2 players) grow up and learn about what is "right and wrong" in society.

Such a valid point.

However, for somebody that has been playing since 2009-2010(i think, don't take me apart on this one),

HERE'S WHERE YOU TRIPPED:

The 6v6 meta-game develops as the competitive 6v6 community develops, however it is not UNDECIDED.

There can be situational changes, but as long as there are no changes to weapon unlocks, major changes in the meta-game will not occur.

If it were that UNDECIDED i'm pretty sure we would have watched plenty of invite level ESEA/ETF2L seasons running pyros/heavies/engineers/snipers/spies to middle.

I think it is pretty much established at the moment when it is beneficial to run certain offclasses.

Pyro when defending last to nullify ubers/Heavy when defending last to deny jumpers, soak damage/Engineer when defending last to waste uber/Spy during holds to nullify uber disadvantage/Sniper during holds to nullify uber disadvantage

And those are "WTFDONG everybody agrees to it" types of situations.

Is it UNDECIDED in those situations?

IS OUR METAGAME UNDECIDED NOW?

Are we REALLY that clueless about whether running engineer to middle is RIGHT or WRONG?

I'm anticipating an attempt to turn this around by dictionary definitions of how undecided = not decided yet = can be changed in the near future = it MAY change next time = i am right you are wrong.

Let's not go there.

The community has been playing 2 soldiers/2 scouts/1 demoman/1 medic for seasons and seasons.

Off classing has been situational in the above mentioned ways for seasons and seasons.

Nothing is "indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta" NOW.

But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

If anything, new weapon unlocks will start to incite changes into the current meta-game.

We have seen how quick-fix changed(arguably disrupted) the metagame for ESEA, and with increasing talks for allowing more weapon unlocks (pyro flare gun/degreaser/axtinguisher), and also Winger for scout, we can begin to expect or suspect more change in our metagame.

Before you choose to trip over more of the very flat ground in front of you, please feel free to read more about the "meta-game" you love to bring up.

http://forums.steamp...d.php?t=3150047

It is actually a pretty good read.

- He who has no stable internet at the moment to play tf2 so engages in keyboard warriordom to make his epeen engorge into a gigantic bulging red wiggling nasty-looking button. He would also like to remind everybody that this thread began originally about a very sad and depressed tf2 pugger whom didn't get picked after waiting for 10 mins. I find it very important to remind everybody about this. Pick Bob!

i also doubt such snipers have anything remotely to do with testing a new play style, especially when they do it in most of the pugs, at the expense of players with inferior skills and dm. but they involve such a minute group of people that it doesn't matter, i guess. it's prolly because they're always scrimming, so they just want to relax or troll, or something...

This right here.

You 24/7 snipers. You know who you are. Mmmhmm...

uhm, i have nothing to say about your real world example that makes no sense at all??!

Ladies will disagree but guys you know what i'm talking about

about that rule, why is that the case? does seem counterintuitive doesn't it.

I think the beauty of tf2 lies in that the crux of a push's success or failure relies as much on the team's class makeup, as well as what actually happens in the fight.

By that I mean, its hard to actually attribute your team's win solely to your offclass.

More often than not, an offclass is effective because of the surprise factor.

If you mean to say that being able to hold last as a heavy justifies pushing out of last, into 2nd and mid, into the enemy 2nd and enemy last as heavy, I find that you are clearly stretching it.

If you happen to win that round running a heavy, and decide to run heavy to middle this round because heavy "worked", I'm finding it hard not to raise an eyebrow.

If you then proceed to run heavy still while your team is failing pushes, you must really just be plain retarded.

I'm not saying that you implied the above situations, but i'm just putting these situations out there for argument's sake.

Heavy is predominantly a defensive class. Does good damage without need to reload, soaks damage, moves slow but that matters less while defending.

When attacking however, heavy being slow is a huge disadvantage. Heavy is unable to chase targets, and once called the enemy team will be focusing the shit out of that heavy.

All that while having to deal with 1 less scout/soldier.

Feel free to swap "heavy" for any other offclass.

We all know why i use "heavy" when in response to you qjyap

I will actually go further to put this out there.

Your offclass is working, MORE because the enemy team is unable to counter you, and LESS because the class itself is viable.

It has more to do with the PLAYER than the CLASS.

A div1 team with an impeccable knowledge of how to 1. aim, 2. maximize potential of offclasses and 3.the all encompassing term game sense, will be able to destroy a div3 team running straight as an arrow cookie cutter classes.

Well, is this because offclasses are viable?

Maybe, but MORE because the player is able to make use of the offclassing effectively.

Now, in a scrim you can take these risks(if your team is in agreement) because your own team suffers the consequences of winning/losing.

You may trust the judgement call of your teammate to offclass pyro to middle because you know for a fact he has practiced airblasting in public servers and dodgeball servers to the extent he can minicrit airshot reflect soldiers 100 percent of the time.

That's all good, in a scrim.

In a pug, however, not everybody is agreeable to offclassing.

I don't trust this other guy running an offclass 24/7 because I don't have to.

I think if anything the argument should be whether or not PUGS should be the playground for experimentation and whether we are ready for experimentation at high level/low level pugs.

If the issue at hand is that offclassers who aren't good at that offclass insist on offclassing(yes that's a mouthful), then leave outrageous offclassing to SCRIMS and let teams willing to embrace extraordinary strategies deal with the consequences.

Why introduce this into PUGS when we all know it will introduce far more chaos than we can swallow?

Feel free to disagree.

2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic MIGHT be stale gameplay for some of you veterans out there, but asiafortress is a community built to not only provide an environment for veterans to play, but also for newer players to learn about competitive play.

For newer players, 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic is a FRESH, NEW format to play within as opposed to the 9 class public server spam fest.

As a new player I find that there is still so much more to learn as a scout, and I know absolutely nothing about soldier/demoman/medic gameplay.

There is always KLOC!

Bring that back to satisfy the offclass fetish for all whom feel the urge

i can't see the logic of how it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug.

Not that I agree with his non-logic, because how can anyone agree with non-logic right?

Right?

First of all, I don't think it is exactly accurate to rephrase his non-logic as "it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug".

TO BE FAIR.....

Shounic does NOT, at ANY point in time, insinuate that "it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug".

I hate to defend him, but just to be fair....

I believe that he stares at a zombie apocalypse and decides to...

Just in case nobody gets it yet, allow me to explain.

He has no opinion about whether its okay or not to be assholes in a pug.

However, he points out that puggers who are non-admins will not be able to do anything about assholes.

Which is true, except for the fact that there exists a votekick/voteban option that these apparently annoyed puggers cannot be bothered to or are too passive to make use of.

He also points out that enforcing rules against offclassing, while able to prevent inappropriate offclassing will also then prevent appropriate offclassing.

Which is true, except that our rules against offclassing at the moment do not seem to inconvenience appropriate offclassers.

After all, action is only taken when admins are around.

Most(some) of the time, our admins are level headed enough to tell the difference between inappropriate or appropriate offclassing.

So, with asiafortress's very loosely enforced appropriate off-classing rule in place, I fail to recognize how appropriate offclassers are being punished as a byproduct of inappropriate offclassing control.

tl;dr

Shounic says : its not OUR problem. honestly. Anyone can offclass without admins around. All pugs have assholes. Deal with it. This is not a solution but I claim it is one. People want to stick to main class scout/soldier/demo/medic. Why so stubborn? Quotes big shots such as Pyyyyyyour and Platinum having no answer to make argument sound more credible. Sweeping statement alert! Claims truth in a what if situation where sniper is so accurate it will replace the cookie cutter classes and become new staple. Don't blame sud.

While I can take another 2 mins to take apart this non-logic, I just want to point a few things out.

How do you have the authority to teach people how to play the game even when someone like Pyyyyyyour or Platinum have no answer?

How can you teach your children about life when you know nothing of life itself?

By this logic(non-logic), there should be no mentoring, guiding, teaching of any sort in asiafortress because even the great Platinum and Pyyyyyyour has no answer!

Oh Lord, who are we to speak of knowledge? Such blasphemy!

The truth is that the way we play works in the current meta-game but you shouldn't be surprised in the future when snipers are so good that one is ran 24/7, how can you blame sud anymore?

I think that while the meta-game is changing, and new and different strategies involving off-classes are being experimented in other more populated arenas (NA, EU), they can do such experimentation because they are at a higher level of play as a community even with the standard, traditional meta-game already.

With our current standard of play as a community at the moment, I'm not entirely sure we are ready to open the floodgates on experimentation just yet. Feel free to disagree with me, and I'm open to hear opinions(yeah yeah if we don't start now we won't ever move forward... heavy to mid is legit strat... I snipe 6 people... jibber jabber yabba dabba doo) about this as well.

Also, don't blame sud.

While you carefully pick sud as your example of an off-classing sniper, I'm sure the bad and uncontributing snipers far outnumber the good and still arguably contributing snipers.

Are we going to open the floodgates on the hosts of bad/uncontributing snipers/pyros/heavies/spies/engineers to allow for experimentation of new meta-games because well, we have a few good snipers in asiafortress?

If the answer is yes, then....

OK BACK TO HEDWIG.

i can't see the logic of how it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug.

Real world example for you to see this logic.

It's okay(maybe not okay but meh) to (fuck her, dump her and be the asshole) just cuz (you're practising to be the best for your future wife).

Ladies will disagree but guys you know what i'm talking about