Azazel

I sincerely hope we both have a clear understanding of how draconian is used, because from my understanding it illustrates a magnitude of excessive severity. "Making more rules to throw at each other and more rules to hide behind is being draconian. Kicking players without a proper explanation is not draconian, that is being a dick and that is exactly what I'm appealing against here." I think if you reverse the two situations, the sentences will still make sense. Forgive my confusion. Back to the issue... I suppose that since my posts are tediously hard to read, some have completely missed the point. I am not advocating a set of all (situation) encompassing guidelines, nor am I advocating making more rules upon rules to throw/hide behind. I am well aware that all encompassing guidelines are impossible to make, especially since there are near infinite permutations of situations(as mentioned by Cam). So allow me to reiterate. The guidelines, are meant for new puggers who will be referred to the guide (http://asiafortress....complete-guide/), and in this guide, if they pay attention, will come across this paragraph that states..... Utilities - Utilities refer to all other classes aside from the 4 classes listed above, i.e. Pyro, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper and Spy. Occasionally, having one of these utility classes on your team may be beneficial, and your team may decide to have a Scout or Soldier switch to one of these classes. Some examples include having a Heavy when holding the last point, or running a Spy/Sniper to get a pick on the enemy Medic to sway things in your favour. Remember to ask your team first before changing classes! Players playing Demoman and Medic should never change class, as these classes are crucial to your team. Disclaimer to all the pubstar Spies: Playing Spy in a PUG is way different from pubs. If you fail, switch classes </p> Now, can this be expanded to include a few situations where offclassing is blatantly frowned upon? I believe so. What will this do? Prevent absolute newbies from running off-classes to mid. At the same time, it can also include what is GENERALLY not encouraged. Obviously, there are such situations where off-classing is NOT encouraged, which is why we have people being kicked/called out/reminded. Guidelines regarding WHAT TO DO is far harder to do than WHAT NOT TO DO. Now in following a WHAT NOT TO DO guideline, how is it that you face this situation? "And what of a case where a player is acting in accordance with said guideline but the team still feels that an off-class isn't helping the current situation? Thus far, it is almost always a situation where an off-class is FROWNED upon than ENCOURAGED. In other words, the current stand is more encouraging of a team that stays entirely within the cookie cutter 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic build, than any other permutation. So yes, blantantly obvious situations that everyone that is logical can agree upon can be highlighted. Situations that are ambiguous, such as the 101 situations that anyone can raise up now "What if.......", is where things get dicey. Allow me to also clarify, that when I say guidelines, I don't mean rules that are enforceable in a sense where "if you don't follow this we will kick you". I mean, a guideline which is made to instill a general mindset in the new players of competitive tf2 so they do not make off-classing decisions that are not agreeable by the team. Also, by having a guideline as such, it makes the admins' job in enforcing these rules a lot easier in a sense that 1. people who have read the guide cannot deny responsibility in blatantly off-classing 2. new puggers would have read and known that there are just some situations you don't off-class don't forget, the rule is currently such that "No unnecessary offclassing" is allowed. "Who is going to be the figure of authority so pro at all kinds of tf2 past present and future to lay down such a guideline?" This is good question. The authorities made it such that there is "No unnecessary offclassing", and in doing so created a massive grey area (which i have elaborated on in my first post), which is a breeding ground for double standards and etc. If there is no way to even ABSTRACTLY encompass the idea of "unnecessary offclassing", and any attempt to conceptualize the idea of "unnecessary offclassing" is brushed aside by a simple rationalization of "infinite permutations of situations", then the No. 1 rule of Asiafortress PUG servers is simply a paper tiger. The problem is this number 1 rule is currently being acted upon by figures of authority in the servers. In other words, there ARE situations of unnecessary offclassing that warrant warnings/kickings. Im not disputing these punishments. My point is, these unnecessary offclassing situations are DEFINABLE and were DEFINED in order for a figure of authority to ACT UPON it. In that case, how can we continue to insist that "unnecessary off-classing" is WHOLLY "infinitely permutable" and thus impossible to define? My suggestion may be off, I might have the wrong idea. But don't get me wrong, we should all think about this constructively rather than push this under the carpet. Don't forget that amongst all replies, most has been targetting the impracticality of the suggestions. In other words, nothing constructive, just destructive. Addressing Darkie, I'm sorry I'm not even close to an average tf2 player, past present or future, so im very much unqualified to draft any sort of guideline. However, since this rule has been enforced, those who have enforced it must have had a situation or guideline in mind before they actually warned/kicked a player. The irony being, that while the argument here is that it is impractical/draconian/impossible to set up guidelines because "nobody is pro enough at tf2(or have a brain powerful enough to encompass all possibilities and illustrate it clearly in a set of all-encompassing guidelines), when it is time for an admin to make a decision to warn/kick an "unnecessary" offclasser it becomes a decision made within seconds. Let's just say my suggestions are impractical, let's say they are draconian. How can we address this discourse? How can we inch towards an ideal of "In each and every situation, each and every pug: people who 'know' must tell, and people who are told must listen. And thats what I'm trying to request here." because currently it seems this is not the case.

I agree this cannot be solved by a one-time ruling by admins, and that this is a problem that must be dealt with over time. However, progressing from status quo is what I'm suggesting. This progress is simply to have guidelines to educate the newer pug community about "intelligent and effective offclassing". Although there can be potentially infinite permutations of where/when to offclass/not offclass, there are blatant situations where off-classing is not tactical or intelligent, and these guidelines should address exactly these cases. That being said, there have been plenty of situations where experienced players off-class at less than tactical situations anyways(whether being successful and carrying the team with an MOG moment, or failing and causing the loss of the team) In other words, these guidelines are made to address the blatantly unnecessary offclassing (pyro to mid, engineer to mid) for newcomers who dont' understand how their off-classing is blatantly unnecessary. As for other situations which are slightly more arguable (Sniper to mid : I say this because I have seen good snipers get called out for off-classing to mid), this will entirely depend on the administrative stand. I fail to see how this is draconian, or even mildly severe as a reaction to the issue of offclassing. To ban all off-classing/allow all off-classing is draconian, that I agree, and it is exactly what I am NOT suggesting. referring to Rawr_ in a post (http://asiafortress....des-of-players/) "The newcomer would think that off-classing for most of the pug is ok and do it in order to replicate the results of the experienced pugger which can be disastrous." "We should set an example by only using the utility classes when the situation demands it" When is this situation? How can we communicate this? "The last thing we need in pugs is a newcomer rolling out to badlands mid as engineer :/" Exactly, how else to ensure this besides putting these guidelines in an MOTD or perhaps refer new puggers to forums which addresses specifically these situations? Draconian? Impractical? For a forum post or motd that relates specifically to the one problem we are facing in PUGs nowadays? Even if it were impractical, would it hurt to have a resource for new puggers to go to that explains the dos and don'ts of off-classing in pugs? Currently, this is the post on Utility classes on the "Getting started in Competitive Tf2 Guide" http://asiafortress....complete-guide/ Utilities - Utilities refer to all other classes aside from the 4 classes listed above, i.e. Pyro, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper and Spy. Occasionally, having one of these utility classes on your team may be beneficial, and your team may decide to have a Scout or Soldier switch to one of these classes. Some examples include having a Heavy when holding the last point, or running a Spy/Sniper to get a pick on the enemy Medic to sway things in your favour. Remember to ask your team first before changing classes! Players playing Demoman and Medic should never change class, as these classes are crucial to your team. Disclaimer to all the pubstar Spies: Playing Spy in a PUG is way different from pubs. If you fail, switch classes If this off-classing issue is a problem with new puggers, then I think a more PRONOUNCED and DEFINITE section/guideline should be devoted to it. A RULE that BANS all or ALLOWS all doesn't need to be implemented, but a GUIDELINE which is aimed to educate is far from draconian or impractical. Having such a guideline might not have an immediate effect on the pug community, but it is a start and progress from status quo. We all know that in an ideal situation, people who "know must tell", and people who are "told must listen". However, we are at this stage only because SOME(not all) people who "know" don't tell, or they do tell but in a less than polite manner. Also, there are SOME (not all) people who are told but don't listen, or listen and continue anyway. What you are trying to request for is set in idealistic grandeur, and the impracticality of the terms "each and every" and "must" is resounding to say the least. There have also been cases where admins warn players for offclassing, and when the player ignores or retorts with a "but it works" or "but experienced players can what", they are kicked. IMO, at this stage, this is far more impractical and draconian. Impractical because this does NOT help players UNDERSTAND why off-classing is disruptive to the pug, but rather simply kicked from the server, which in my opinion only breeds rage and not a genuine understanding. I quote Misfit in (http://asiafortress.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2559-concerns-about-attitudes-of-players/page__st__20) Agree with Cald. There has to be mutual respect in the community. Amongst players. Not just to admins. Everyone started out as a newcomer, please remember that. I remember a player getting kicked out of a server before the admin explained what the reason was. What is the point in that? The player can't see the reason. The player does not know why he/she was kicked/banned. The times when the admin DOES give the reason is 1 second before he kicks the player. Personally it makes more sense to tell the player what he is doing wrong & warn he/she of an imminent ban if the unacceptable behaviour continues. That being said, some players who purposefully off-class after being warned time and again should be kicked, no questions asked. Ultimately, the question is what can be done to HELP achieve the ideal of "one big happy family", and what can be done to inch closer to that ideal. If we have a more educated community, at least us newcomers will not be doing things wrong because we genuinely "didn't know", and thus the need for more pronounced guidelines on this off-classing matter. Lastly, i quote natapon in the concerns about player attitudes post (http://asiafortress....udes-of-players) "it doesn't matter who you are, you should not be off-classing unnecessarily. it is against the pug rules (read the damn MOTD)." Exactly my point. WHO it is, is not the point. Unnecessary or not, should depend on the WHY and the WHEN. If the "unnecessarily" can be clarified such that all potential off-classers will make intelligent decisions before changing their class... how is that impractical or draconian?

The first rule on the MOTD of Asiafortress PUG servers state: "No unnecessary offclassing" The term "unnecessary" is subjective, and thus double standards ensue. The offending player who offclasses vs the admin, the offending player who offclasses vs other players who wishes for no offclassing, even between different admins who are faced with a situation of player offclassing but have conflicting views. At the end of the day, if there are no definite guidelines, there can be no enforcable rule. At both extremes, there can be a full out ban of all off-classes, or there can be no ban on all off-classes. Obviously, the above two extremes are not preferred choices as a solution, and offclassing seems to be an element the asiafortress pug admins/servers wish to keep. Thus, where can we find middle ground? Ever since this "no unnecessary offclassing" rule was implemented, there has been several instances when offclassing players were warned/kicked from pug servers. What then, is unnecessary offclassing? Should there be a guideline that addresses this? If an experienced player is able to roll an offclass to middle and still make it work, should it be allowed? My personal stand isn't advocative of off-classing or not off-classing, but rather the absolute need to take a definitive stand on a clear guideline against or for off-classing. If the administration's stand is simply to ban all off-classing, or to allow all off-classing, then players will have to abide by it. Similarly, if it is the administration's stand to allow a double standard and a massive grey area with respect to offclassing, then players will still have to abide by it. This grey area, however, can be significantly addressed once there is a definitive guideline with respect to the NORM of off-classing (why and when). Addressing the "WHY" and "WHEN" of off-classing is far more objective than addressing the subjective "WHO". In other words, running an off-class to mid because player XYZ is known to be a fantastic sniper/pyro/heavy/spy/engineer is immediately discredited because GENERALLY mid fights are engaged with standard classes. Then comes the exceptions such as "but it is okay to run sniper to badlands middle...", which creates a more complex and problematic condition. I understand that in creating such a rule is made with good intentions to stop blatantly unnecessary offclassing (engineer to middle, spy to middle, pyro to middle, mostly the off-classing at mid fights). Generally, sniper has been the most viable of the off-classes, and players rolling sniper to mid has not been uncommon. Thus, in order to better approach this issue of off-classing, here are my 2 cents worth. 1. Drafting of rules must entirely ignore the player's skill/technique. This immediately eliminates the problem of double standards. "Player XYZ can run sniper to mid because he's good, Player ABC can't because he is bad". 2. Guidelines can be drafted based on stage of the game What off-classes are allowed during midfights, defending/attacking 2nd or last, etc. For example, "Sniper to middle is allowed". With respect to certain maps, then perhaps "Sniper to badlands middle is allowed". However, once this is allowed, all players who decide to run sniper to middle should be allowed, and there should not be biasness towards players who try but fail in the process. Keep in mind that even experienced players fail sometimes. Some legitimate off-classes that are generally not frowned upon: Pyro when defending last Sniper when defending last Engineer when defending last Heavy when defending last Sniper when attacking last Spy when attacking last and various other situations that I cannot think of because I'm bad at tf2. Of course each off-class is beneficial only in certain situations and ultimately the education of the general pug community of the thought-process of off-classing(why and when we should do so), especially us new players, will already eliminate most "unnecessary" offclassing(so as long they are playing logically and not trying to purposefully be a retard) Everybody can have their own personal opinions about when off-classing is beneficial to the team (some say running heavy to middle is gooooooooood idea), but ultimately the collective decision of the admins and some common sense can help to create a more definite guideline as to what is intelligent and effective off-classing(which includes when NOT to). Once everybody is on the same page, then there should be lesser disputes regarding this issue. For the same reason, there are Standard Operating Procedures in almost every organization. An ambiguous SOP is as good as no SOP.

Name: Azazel Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/evangoh1987/ Class: Scout

Alias: Azazel SteamID: STEAM_0:1:35657178 Steam Profile http://steamcommunit...m/id/evangoh1987/ Date joined (AFA) May 2012 Experience: PUGS, MGE Class played: Soldier Class desiring to learn: Soldier (pocket n roaming!)