DaLoneHuggable

Firstly, I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone who commented on my previous thread regardless of whether it was against or agreeing with my judgement for finding the time to read through my say and opinion. After my grandfather's passing last Wednesday, I have had lots of free time to do anything I wanted(mostly due to the fact that the internet in that house was soooooo slow and I could barely play properly with pings of at least 100) and I came across the thread I made awhile ago which stated the decline of Asiafortress and its community due to the veterans mistreatment of the newcomers. I must admit, I read all 7 pages(yes, I had that much time) and there were some comments forumers and myself made that I found to be quite funny, some naive, and some to be taken seriously. To be quite honest with you guys, I sounded quite immature and whiny in most of my comments haha. I found that yes, I was partially wrong in just raging and putting up a piece text citing every single hardship I've ever come across in pugs, but I found that that wasn't the point of life. Life is never fair. The only way to solve the dilemma is to see how I as a person can deal with it. I can't expect everyone to be perfect, nothing to always work the way I want it to. This doesn't mean that the accused aren't wrong though. It's just that I found I couldn't be hoping for people to treat me the way I want them to. There's just nothing the admins or myself can do about it, so I'm just letting it be. So, I after these short and simple paragraphs, would like to apologise in a way to anyone who has been troubled/offended by my say. Acceptance isn't something that can be expected, it's something you have to earn for yourself. On this note, I hope that we can start afresh, and I will come into pugs with a more open heart, where I can accept shit comments and will try my best to take in any tips available to me to make myself a better player. I wish for the community to forget the past and pretend nothing happened? Just a way for me to make up for everything and to retry joining Asiafortress. This going especially to people who in my opinion haven't really given me a chance for whatever reason, could we start over? I don't want to be hated by anyone, so I hope that you guys can give me another shot at fitting into the community. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heyo guys. For those of you who don't know me, I'm Jay, known in-game as DaLoneHuggable or DLH. I'm your average Chinese teen who joined the competitive scene for TF2 around last October. I live in Malaysia, so my internet connection to the pug servers won't be all that impressive, which may lead to some random spikes which I'm trying to fix, as some of them have caused me problems and mistakes in the past. I'm looking forward to joining the Asiafortress community, and hope to be friends with every single one of you out there. I don't have a main anymore, but have been spending lots of time on mge servers nowadays. Can play a decent scout/soldier/medic, I am welcome to any tips you can grant me to improving myself. I do make decisions in-game that may turn out to be grave mistakes, I apologise in advance for any that may happen in the future. Thx, and I really hope this will work out. ~†

As to Dream, I do agree that some newbs can't really take advice as easily as others can, in which case is an exception to my point. I do agree that some vets still give constructive criticism, but just saying that we 'suck' and all doesn't help towards our self-confidence. I do believe that in order to perform well, we still need to believe that we are capable of doing things, even if it's not perfect yet. Also, comments and attitudes like Teddy's (which I can gladly quote his 'Seriously, you have been playing for quite awhile and there is 0 improvement') are simply putting our efforts down. Even if we're trying our best, we still get criticised in the way that doesn't give us one bit of motivation to improve. We all strive to improve, otherwise what else would we strive for? As for your point to me, I note it. We all make mistakes. Your explanation to me would be constructive imo, cos unlike Teddy's you actually give a reason as to why my attempt failed, and still criticises me in a way that I can acknowledge without feeling put down at all.

Given, you may be right that I made the wrong decision in trying to 'rambo' Red. Doesn't give you ANY rights to rag on that point at all though. And there's your opinion which pretty much sums up all I'm disliking now about your mistreatment of 'newcomers'. How the f**k do you have any rights at all to say, much less know, that I haven't been improving at all? DO you watch me fail every single match I play? No. DO you see me trailing mass numbers of points after each game? No. DO YOU FKING SEE ME MESSING UP EVERYTHING I DO? No. Point being, how the hell can you say that I am staying at a certain point? I myself, and I'm quite sure other puggers can also agree to, that I have been improving slowly, if not a lot, but at the very least I am still trying my best and listening to tips. I don't drop much anymore, which is a personal down for my med. My aim is pretty decent nowadays, better than when I began pugging. So just use your head to actually think for a second before trying to comment on whether I've been improving or not.

Haha been a few times, and yes. I have told my teammates beforehand. Granted, sometimes I forget, but maybe it's impatience that motivates them to voteban after half a minute? Point taken anyways, thx.

No, that was not what I meant. U shld treat a pug seriously if ur going to try and improve, dont u agree? leaving halfway, even for a minute, leaves ur team at a constant disadvantage. A minute is enough to push out from last and regain mid. I do treat the pug seriously. My first point had always been: Is going away for a minute AT THE START OF A PUG AFTER EVERYONE'S BEEN PICKED AND BEFORE READY UP IS COMPLETED that wrong? That entire part was unnecessary. U said that admins werent the only source of mentoring. that means the only players, who are not admins, would only leave the puggers themselves. What point are u trying to make. Secondly, i believe some people are alr trying to help you out? or am I wrong? or is it because u havent actively seeked help from anyone? What I'm trying to say is that I never made a point of asking for mentoring and shiz to be the only source of improvement, just that it COULD be a part of improvement instead of just criticising us with absolutely no factor of improvement in mind. And yes, I have asked some players for help, some of which have been quite nice to agree, some who rejected my request, but all in politeness. That partially contradicts my point yes. To everything there is a risk. When u go out with your friends to have fun, there is a risk of having an accident in whatever u do. Whatever u do, there is a risk. In AFL, the risk is playing with veterans who throw at u harsh criticism. Theres all im merely trying to say. Most of us try to make it a fun and friendly place. Its only a certain number of people, and Im sure although u make it seem that harsh criticism happens alot (which is true), its only from the same few people, can u agree with me on that? Yeah, you're right on that one. Assumption does give me mistakes to deal with soz.

In response to bio Have u ever seen anyone in a scrim/ official match "take a break to do stuff"? No. Furthermore, u can always standby a drink beside u and drink when ur dead. And to ur 2nd point. I have a good example to rebutt it. U can ask a person named And, an admin of this community, who kicked k1infran,a well known div 1 player, for offclassing sniper on granary. I was referring to before a pug starts when everyone has been picked lol. Never said anything about it being halfway through a match. If u honestly say what u mean, then why do u honestly care about those veterans that have that belief? Approach those that do NOT have that belief for help then? and for the 2nd statement. there are SO MANY other ways to teach yourself other than puggers in this community. U know ETF2L and ESEA? watch their games which are casted. U know ur own demos? Review them. I never mentioned anything about getting puggers was the ONLY way to teach myself, but that instead of just ragging, they COULD help out or just let us learn in our own time. There is a timer u can always use. U know how badlands best rollout timing is 9:44s approximate for demomen? U can always aim to reach that timing after every round start on your empty server. And its strange u need a pug server to rush yourself. It just means u have no motivation to reach mid as fast as possible. The motivation part was meant for empty servers, but I get your point, thx. Point taken, but that also doesnt mean I have contradcited myself in anyway. Please refrain from accusing me of it without proper explanation. Soz, I'm feeling a bit off today. Please tell me further if I fail to meet your understanding later on. I, in no way, said "pugs are reserved purely for people who dont need to have these experiences" I believe no one cares if u go to a pug, absolutely no one is restricting you to do so. if u really want to get what I mean, here it is in 2 sentences. If u find a mix or scrim, u wont have to face these harsh comments. HOWEVER, if u do wish to pug, NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU, but prepare to face harsh comments which are expected, as u cant possible expect others to understand u when u come at your own risk. I already said, your words implied that statement. Point taken, no one is stopping me. But the way you're making it sound - 'come at your own risk', immediately implies the feeling that harsh words and comments are expected? I thought of afl to be a friendly and fun community to join while keeping its competitive standards, and still do. But when you use that phrase, people naturally assume the other meaning.

Uh... Don't get the smurf part. Noted. Thx for trying to make it easier for me to understand :3

I'm not 'victimising' myself, just countering your points I see to be flawed and invalid. Rejecting everything you say is also invalid, as I have changed my point of view in some parts due to your comments. Please take closer notice of my words, thx.

We all as humans know when something we do is wrong or bad. When you drop uber, you mentioned 'you'. This adds onto my point where the newer players aren't given the same amount of respect as the older players are. When I drop uber, I am yelled at. I have decreased the amount of times I drop my a lot since I began, but yet I am still criticised in the rare occasions that I do nowadays. Justice? Plus, I will say this for his sake: he IS good, and I respect that. He can play well in a short amount of time? Good for him. But you can't expect all of us to do the same. Also, you mentioned 'much later than I did', which refers to being later than YOU. For all we know, you could have been playing since the game was f2p. Just a flaw I'd like to point out.

In reply to Biotics I believe no one in this community has ever told u guys to " not play with us" other than a few exceptions I can think of. Dont we all still keep you in the game, with some occasions of votekicking due to legit reasons (etc. medic crossbowing instead of healing wtf) The first sentence is oxymoronic. Some occasions? Quite a few times I alone nearly got vote banned simply because I took a minute's break and not readying up. Plus, if even the veterans treat pugs as pub "lol let's go double sniper", how does trying something different as a lower tier player make us more at fault? U said we consider u guys a tier below veterans. That means If u dont want us to do that, u want us to consider u as veterans? ur argument earlier is clearly flawed. And I myself am not stuborn to admit that, but U YOURSELF are generalising the VETERAN COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, that they consider u guys as 'cancer' i think some people who are veterans do not think that, spammah himself is 1 such example who helps people like u improve from time to time I already mentioned in my statement that MOST veterans have that sort of belief. Read properly please. I can say that all the admins do their best to help us, but they aren't the only players who can teach us. Rolling out on an empty server versus rolling out on a pug server has NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever. what u are saying refers to actual gameplay etc. midfights, but ur earlier arguement states " Many times I've come across players who roll slowly and get yelled at." Clearly here you are talking about rolling out. My bad, I was using a specified topic to prove as an example, but it still is valid. In an empty server, we are not rushed in the least. Give or take, real games are always still the best ways to improve. I did not contradict my comment. I admitted that although it would be better for everyone to help each other, its just not reality. Did I say that everyone in the world is perfect? No, I clearly did not. All I did was picture an unreal world where everyone helps each other. Did I mention that everyone in the world was perfect as well? No, clearly I did no. All I did was say that as rare as it could be, there are still people helping one another out, just not enough to counter the haters we have. So go figure out these experiences that u need through ur own mixes. Why pug, furthermore pugging helps u gain less experience than in a mix if u didnt know. Yet again, you are speaking as if pugs are reserved purely for people who don't need to have these experiences. And yes, I didn't know that. You may not mean the above^, but your words certainly imply as such.

So now you're saying that we shouldn't play with you guys simply because you're verbally harassing us? I'm merely stating a common issue on the forums, not just expressing my unhappiness. Asiafortress should be a place where EVERYONE can enjoy themselves without being discriminated and shiz.

Given, he is a really good player, but that doesn't give him rights to comment on our bad plays just because he's good. It'd be fine if his comments actually taught us anything to improve on, but they contain nothing we can use to work on our improvement.

In response to clover, It's natural selection, veterans had to put up with the same shit you do today. However, they are now here, known by the community because they were able to put up with the same amount of persecution that you did, but instead of just complaining about it, they actually put effort into working towards becoming a better player, so as to avoid the bullshit the previous batch of veterans had forced onto them. Makes sense to me, but did they really have to experience the same things we experience today? The world is completely different from the world it was a few years back, I'm pretty sure it'd be less harsh than it is today. Granted, perseverance plays a part, but there is still a line between bullshit that no one takes seriously and bullying. Instead of succumbing to few harsh remarks or nasty criticism, they actually thought about working harder to become better. Sure some people may leave but it's all part of improving the community. Though what the veterans may have done to you may not be condoned, it is all part and parcel for a growing competitive community. It is because of these veterans being harsh on the new players that causes the new players to want to prove the veterans wrong, to want to improve so as to avoid further criticism when playing in pugs or what not. A few harsh remarks? That's a way of putting it generously by a mile. Pressure admittedly pushes us, makes US push ourselves but there is a limit of what we can take. Your friends may have quit the competitive tf2 or tf2 as a whole, due to the community or whatever other reason, but do you not think the veterans now didn't have friends that quit tf2 as well because of the same reason when they were equally as new as you. The way I hear things, stuff was not as bad as this back then. They most likely didn't have this reason to leave. At least you managed to persevere through the harsh remarks the community has put unto you and still have the desire to play in pugs with the same veterans who have scolded you countless times before. If you were sincerely here to improve, it wouldn't bother you how much unreasonable scoldings you would have received, you can't expect to improve without the feedback of other players, be it positive or negative. There's a difference between negative/positive feedback and 'get back onto hightower and learn how to play first' simply for the reason that most of the new players KNOW what to do. We sometimes just have problems with executing it properly, which does in a way help us learn, but not by your ragging that we can learn from. If we are to quietly work on our weaknesses, it is still possible without us feeling too much the weight when we are a 'burden'. Instead of just voicing out your opinions on the forums, maybe it's time for you to spend more time on the game to improve, to work on what others have criticised you on. It's not about acceptance and understanding, it should be about you wanting to work on your own individual skill, so as to save yours and the veterans time when you are pugging. We do practice in our own time, even if you don't notice. Most of us go onto mge to practice aim and dm when we're free, but it doesn't give us the same experience as we would be getting in a real match. Working on our skill does take up some game time at least, during a pug. This way we can learn to work under more pressure than just the basic 20 kills and that's it. We can actually focus on priorities in this way. Bottomline is, don't come to a pug unprepared. You are expected to know at least the basics of pugging before coming to a pug. Veterans don't fault you for having good mechanical skills but shit thinking, they fault you for not understanding the fundamentals such as rollouts. Coming to a pug unprepared is not only a waste of your own time, but also the time of everyone else in the pug. Once again, I repeat that I NEVER said anything about being unprepared when going into a pug. We understand the fundamentals as you say, but sometimes have trouble fully executing them. We already act with full commitment to our picked teams, whatever they are and still get put down. And no one said anything about faulting us for 'good mechanical skills but shit thinking', but faulting us for any simple mistake we make. It's not just decisions that they force onto us, but even the single faltered shot could get you a whole bunch of down putting comments.

In reply to the statements by Biotics that make sense to me. Like I said, everyone in this community has their own self interests. And like you said, you guys have limited time, and so does everyone else here playing this very game. If you guys are afraid of being taunted, go scrim against other players of your own skill level. No one is asking you to suit them, just dont play with these people and scrim for yourselves. Point taken for your 3rd last to last statement. How do you have the right to tell us not to play with you guys? We have our own choices about who we want to play with, without segregation of our own 'skill level'. WAIT ARE U ACTUALLY SAYING U ARE NOT NEW? ARE U SAYING U HAVE EXPERIENCE SUCH THAT U DEEM URSELF AS DECENT PLAYERS? IF SO, WHY ARE VETERANS STILL SAYING MEAN STUFF ABOUT U. I SERIOUSLY DONT THINK THEY SAY THAT FOR FUN EXCUSE ME. And umm, did u honestly, really, just say that bokonon and u are... veterans. Im sorry. I cant. Just cant. rebutt this. My mind is blown. Haha never said that we were veterans, just said that we deserve the rights NOT to be called names and shiz anymore. We try our very best to play like you guys, and yes, I would say we are at the very least decent. Are you still too stubborn to admit that? If u know u rollout slowly, there is something called a create server option which allows u to perfect ur rollout without being scolded nor bitched not laughed at by anyone else. Then there won't be any form of game sense for us if we're practicing on an empty server. Granted, we'll gradually get better, but just because we make a mistake once upon a time and turn out slower than expected doesn't give you ragging rights on us. Dude, no one in this world is perfect. how can u expect others to use their precious time just to help you. It seems from your argument that u want more people to be kinder and help others. though that obviously is a better world, it isnt reality. No one has the time to do so, neither is everyone kind enough. this is reality, face it. Then you just contradicted your own comment. Go figure. I didn't necessarily ask for you guys to be 'kinder and help others', just not to rag on us if we're still working on our strengths. I think the guides in the forums are the very evidence of spoonfeeding. When people who date back to AFL1 or 2 started, they had NO GUIDES WHATSOEVER. Do they actually work? The guides give a theoretical base for you to work on, but we still have to figure out a lot by ourselves. Some of it still has to come through experience through gameplay.

Agree with your point that not just ANYONE should get invited into pugs. Some of the more 'cancer' players often come in just knowing the password, but that's not the point I'm arguing for. Generalisation means nothing if less than half of the players you are talking about actually fit your description. It is the presumption that new players can't play a decent game with their own set of skills that really kills it in the end. We can all reach that level, it's always just a matter of time.