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Shounic

IMPORTANT: Changes in AF PUG Servers

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Greetings AsiaFortress community!

Today we will be rolling out a new experimental change to the chat system and rules in our PUG servers.

Effective from this post, all text chat will be disabled when the PUG goes live. Text chat will remain enabled during warmup, setup and post-game.

Chat will be fully enabled at all times during Scrim Mode.

Additionally, Mumble is now compulsory for PUGs. Refusal to join the designated Mumble channels may result in a kick from the PUG for someone else to take the player slot, and continual refusal may lead to escalated penalties.

If you are a new player who does not know how to use Mumble, follow this guide to install and set up Mumble.

After you have installed Mumble, you may click on these links to be automatically moved to the server and designated channels.

Server 1 (RED | BLU | SPEC)

Server 2 (RED | BLU | SPEC)

Server 3 (RED | BLU | SPEC)

Server 4 (RED | BLU | SPEC)

Server 5 (RED | BLU | SPEC)


Feedback may be provided as a reply to this thread. We will be evaluating the results of this experimental change, taking all your feedback into account. Lastly, speaking of feedback, I have posted a thread in general discussion about possible future changes to the AsiaFortress Whitelist. You can see it here

Thanks, and happy pugging!

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Shounic and the admins, please review this again.

 

As of the lan, many old players have quit. Nowadays in pugs are almost all new faces, most of which don't even check the forums. And then won't bother to install mumble. If you're gonna be kicking people because they don't have mumble, then a pug would take 1hr to finish.

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Before we start with the melodramatic knee jerk reactions, please note that as mentioned in the post, this is an experimental initiative . 

 

Disabling chat has less to do with mumble and more to do with chat abuse by -  let's put it mildly -  "competitive" players within the community.

 

I'm surprised you of all people hedwig are against something that prevents people from being abusive toads in chat.  

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@Fuzz: Isn't it just a handful bunch? I logged this new guy who after I told him not to offclass he told me something like "why don't you f**cking mge me in any class?" I'm sure this has happened before

 

It's not just the veterans/regulars who use the chat to abuse people, and I can definately say that the usage of chat for verbal abuse has toned down since I joined last year in August.

 

Since I have not tested this new system out, I am in no position to criticize it, my bad. But theoratically, more rules and regulations has to be mended/added before it is implemented into the current pug system. If the puggers don't use in-game voice chat, how are they gonna communicate in mumble?

Edited by frostic

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Hi all, would like to address some of the initial feedback.

 

It's important to note that this is an experimental change, and we will further adjust the implementation along the way, taking into account the results and feedback from the community. I understand your initial concerns, and ask that everyone experience the new changes and then provide us with further thoughts and suggestions.

 

Our intention of this change is firstly to reduce the occurrence of chat abuse, as well as encourage the usage of Mumble. Ideally, we as a community could develop a culture of using Mumble for PUGs, improving its quality through an increase in communication. Additionally, if a delay of 5+ mins for a PUG to get new players to install Mumble is all that's necessary for each new "wave" of new players to get on and start socializing with the community, as well as learning things like calling and receiving help through Mumble, I think it's worth it, though of course it remains to be seen what the exact time requirements are.

 

From channel and server hopping around, I have realized that most players already have Mumble, but are always in their/someone else's team channels. This change is thus, for most of the relatively experienced PUG players, a requirement to move Mumble channels to join your PUG team, while allowing new players an easier way to interact with the more experienced ones in Mumble.

 

We have expected backlash from the community for such changes, and understandably so because nobody likes being forced to do anything. However, I hope that the community could understand the good intentions behind the change, and rest assured with the knowledge that we will be continually making tweaks and improvements to the system based on what's working (and not).

 

Thanks for the feedback all, and keep it coming!

  • Like 1

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Obviously rageyness of players did not cross my mind at all, since the announcement is about enforcing mumble and disabling the chat system without providing any reasoning behind the changes - so I could only conclude they were related.

 

gluck

edited to add:

 

Thanks, Caldoran, for your comments and (finally!) explaining the motive behind this. Greatly appreciate it.

Edited by hedwig

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On the first day I was asked to Admin I did have that idea, transparency. But I realized that it was quite difficult. We talk about so many sensitive things in our admin chat and discussions about various parts of the community. A lot of ideas are passed around that never come to fruition and even more about our competitions. But the problem is that when we start announcing the things we talk about, there's going to be too much misplaced expectations. But regardless, thanks for reminding me, I'll think about how we can work towards that again. We've always tried to explain whatever when we're asked though.

 

To create this experiment we had to coordinate a bunch of operations. Natapon had to edit the plugin accordingly, me and Caldoran has to write up everything, I have to sort out the server messages, and when we're trying to juggle all of these at once (especially the server plugin) it's honestly difficult to expect us to launch it with the press of a button. We will consider implementing changes with prior warnings after this.

 

I want to say that this experiment is not expected to succeed. It can fail too, and that's acceptable. But from the previous efforts to improve the quality of our PUGs, there has been so many petite issues. It's ironic to see everyone complain about PUG skill levels being shit, then nobody even tries to join in on mumble when we make it a rule. Okay, if it's not a rule you can join the circlejerk mumbles. But now that it's a rule, I'm going to infer two things from this. If it succeeds, we can keep the system and adjust the chat allowances. If it fails, I'm going to ignore anyone who talks about PUG quality without any substantial argument, and that nobody really cares about having better PUGs. 

 

This experiment is the community's time to SHOW us what they really believe in. We've always heard your views, and we've gone through ridiculous lengths to satisfy them.

 

I'm not going to repeat what Caldoran has said, so if you have any more questions, leave them in this thread.

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What happens if verbal abuse happens in mumble itself?

Hi frostic,

 

Currently our stance is that abuse will significantly drop after removing the convenience of text chat, part of the reason for this experimental change. We will be observing player behaviour in the PUG servers and Mumble, and will make appropriate adjustments to the system and rules in response.

 

On that note, I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all players to be respectful to your fellow puggers, regardless of experience or status. A little angst and rage here and there is natural and expected, though certainly not encouraged. Harassment, threats, and repeated insults are, however, unacceptable behaviour.

 

Do not be the reason for new measures to be taken, further restricting and inconveniencing everyone else.

 

Thanks all.

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What happens if verbal abuse happens in mumble itself?

 

We are not your parents. We encourage players to be kind and understanding, but at the end of the day, it's your responsibility to act in a respectable manner. If you have issues with another player you should be sorting it out with them, not us. 

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Could in game chat be enabled during picking so we could tell the medic who to pick?

 

Also, the removal of the chat system has caused players to move in and out of the channels incessantly just to say 'get wrecked' or similar things

Edited by chongy

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Could in game chat be enabled during picking so we could tell the medic who to pick?

 

Also, the removal of the chat system has caused players to move in and out of the channels incessantly just to say 'get wrecked' or similar things

 

The first is a bug that I've notified Natapon about. Second issue - if people want to trash talk then that's the compromise. Weren't people complaining about people being rude as well?

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So what I'm getting from shounic is that people can get away with name calling and insulting?

 

Let me get this clear, you expect the Admin Team to police people's language on the internet and ban them for using 'bad words' or 'hateful language'? Should I add to the MOTD that we are a family-friendly server? TF2 is rated 15+ in the UK, why aren't you mature enough to handle some 'name calling'?

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sorry if i'm speaking illogically, but if the issue at hand here is to prevent chat abuse by disabling chat, then shouldnt we be tackling the problem by imposing rules on chat abuse or something? 

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sorry if i'm speaking illogically, but if the issue at hand here is to prevent chat abuse by disabling chat, then shouldnt we be tackling the problem by imposing rules on chat abuse or something?

Hi Absolute,

 

Reducing chat abuse is but one of the reasons we are experimenting with this change. We are also attempting to improve the quality of PUGs through the enforcement of Mumble.

 

Also note that our goal at this point in time is reduction of chat abuse, and not outright prevention. While stricter rules regarding chat would likely be more effective, it would also require constant admin supervision which is impractical, and also opens another whole can of worms regarding just how strict said rules should be, as well as the appropriate penalties to be handed out for violations.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

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Let me get this clear, you expect the Admin Team to police people's language on the internet and ban them for using 'bad words' or 'hateful language'? Should I add to the MOTD that we are a family-friendly server? TF2 is rated 15+ in the UK, why aren't you mature enough to handle some 'name calling'?

So a player can be rude and a major douche for all he wants and not get banned? Of course when people call you names you brush it aside, it's the internet. But there should be consequences for abusing people in mumble? It actually hurts when people use their voice to scold/insult/whatever you.

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So a player can be rude and a major douche for all he wants and not get banned? Of course when people call you names you brush it aside, it's the internet. But there should be consequences for abusing people in mumble? It actually hurts when people use their voice to scold/insult/whatever you.

 

That's an issue of your emotional well-being that is too complicated for us to try manage. I will give you the advice many of us got - "grow a thicker skin".

 

Some people are offended by the word fuck, should we censor that? Jews are offended by people joking about Hitler, should we censor that? I like my mom, should I ban fishee for making jokes about my mother's weight?

 

There are too many different interpretations of what is offensive.

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When scolding in chat was bad enough, now the new players would have to endure the more experienced players rage via voice. Isn't that more damaging to the future generation of AFL?

  • Like 2

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Hi Tormented and Floaty,

 

When scolding in chat was bad enough, now the new players would have to endure the more experienced players rage via voice. Isn't that more damaging to the future generation of AFL?

This remains to be seen, since we are currently experimenting on the effect Mumble being the sole communication medium will have on "rage", as compared to the convenience of text chat.

 

also are the spectators supposed to join mumble as well cos u know, how else do u ask for sub

Spectators are supposed to be able to communicate, in case of situations where subbed players need to request their slot back. If it's not working at the moment, it is a bug that will be addressed soon.

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Some feedback: it works. People aren't as edgy and cocky as they are in game in mumble. It may be a hassle for people to install mumble or launch it just before a PUG, however it helps newer players get into that competitive feel too, I see the point in it.

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