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DaLoneHuggable

Acceptance & Understanding of (New) Puggers

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okay true, but I was playing on a smurf. (HUE)

 

I give teejay as an example of someone to strive to be like, and it's an example of someone who is a noob that was prepared enough to join pugs. This is kind of the point bio is making, new players should be more prepared. I'm just trying to make it easier for you to understand. 

 

Uh... Don't get the smurf part. Noted. Thx for trying to make it easier for me to understand :3

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Uh... Don't get the smurf part. Noted. Thx for trying to make it easier for me to understand :3

I smurfed in the example I gave you about dropping.

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So because a hundred years ago slavery was prevalent, accepted, widely believed to be "the way things were supposed to be" and many slaves had to "deal with it", it's ok for me to go out and enslave a person I perceive to be inferior to me?

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imo; veterans should not say things like (quote teejay: you lagging like dog) this. why the extra "like dog" when you could just say that that person is lagging? does anyone one like to be branded a dog? yes yes you may argue that you are calling the lag a dog not the player but that's not what i'm trying to bring out over here (no offence teejay). this is my request (and not a command), would the vets kindly remind us/rage at us without harmful words?

helps to build a better community i guess.

again, it's just frosty's opinion and no one cares about him so you could jolly well ignore this :-)

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So because a hundred years ago slavery was prevalent, accepted, widely believed to be "the way things were supposed to be" and many slaves had to "deal with it", it's ok for me to go out and enslave a person I perceive to be inferior to me? 

 

I think its right for me to say that, if you cannot handle the criticism and harsh comments (in this analogy slavery), while in the past everyone had to deal with it, there is a solution now to this "slavery" which is called "dont join the server"

 

Im not trying to say asiafortress is going to die, but honestly if you can accept harsh criticism, please do join our community and learn as much as u can from this critiques. if you cant, sorry, but u can always avoid to face the insults by simply not joining the server.

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In response to bio


 


Have u ever seen anyone in a scrim/ official match "take a break to do stuff"? No. Furthermore, u can always standby a drink beside u and drink when ur dead. And to ur 2nd point. I have a good example to rebutt it. U can ask a person named And, an admin of this community, who kicked k1infran,a well known div 1 player, for offclassing sniper on granary.


I was referring to before a pug starts when everyone has been picked lol. Never said anything about it being halfway through a match. 

 


If u honestly say what u mean, then why do u honestly care about those veterans that have that belief? Approach those that do NOT have that belief for help then? and for the 2nd statement. there are SO MANY other ways to teach yourself other than puggers in this community. U know ETF2L and ESEA? watch their games which are casted. U know ur own demos? Review them.

I never mentioned anything about getting puggers was the ONLY way to teach myself, but that instead of just ragging, they COULD help out or just let us learn in our own time. 

 

There is a timer u can always use. U know how badlands best rollout timing is 9:44s approximate for demomen? U can always aim to reach that timing after every round start on your empty server. And its strange u need a pug server to rush yourself. It just means u have no motivation to reach mid as fast as possible.

The motivation part was meant  for empty servers, but I get your point, thx.

 

Point taken, but that also doesnt mean I have contradcited myself in anyway. Please refrain from accusing me of it without proper explanation.

Soz, I'm feeling a bit off today. Please tell me further if I fail to meet your understanding later on. 

 

I, in no way, said "pugs are reserved purely for people who dont need to have these experiences" I believe no one cares if u go to a pug, absolutely no one is restricting you to do so. if u really want to get what I mean, here it is in 2 sentences. If u find a mix or scrim, u wont have to face these harsh comments. HOWEVER, if u do wish to pug, NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU, but prepare to face harsh comments which are expected, as u cant possible expect others to understand u when u come at your own risk.

I already said, your words implied that statement. Point taken, no one is stopping me. But the way you're making it sound - 'come at your own risk', immediately implies the feeling that harsh words and comments are expected? I thought of afl to be a friendly and fun community to join while keeping its competitive standards, and still do. But when you use that phrase, people naturally assume the other meaning. 

 

 

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I quote from Azazel

"Embrace the rage

 

Honestly, it's good for you"

for DLH. who wants to join a cancer pug, who wants to lose? heck i don't know anyone who does. so it's natural for veterans trying hard to win the pug to be angry at someone who cause them to lose or have been a burden throughout the duration of 30mins. taking stuff from aza again this 30 mins is precious. so obviously people would get angry.

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I was referring to before a pug starts when everyone has been picked lol. Never said anything about it being halfway through a match. 

 

No, that was not what I meant. U shld treat a pug seriously if ur going to try and improve, dont u agree? leaving halfway, even for a minute, leaves ur team at a constant disadvantage. A minute is enough to push out from last and regain mid.

 

I never mentioned anything about getting puggers was the ONLY way to teach myself, but that instead of just ragging, they COULD help out or just let us learn in our own time. 

 

U said that admins werent the only source of mentoring. that means the only players, who are not admins, would only leave the puggers themselves. What point are u trying to make. Secondly, i believe some people are alr trying to help you out? or am I wrong? or is it because u havent actively seeked help from anyone?

 

I already said, your words implied that statement. Point taken, no one is stopping me. But the way you're making it sound - 'come at your own risk', immediately implies the feeling that harsh words and comments are expected? I thought of afl to be a friendly and fun community to join while keeping its competitive standards, and still do. But when you use that phrase, people naturally assume the other meaning. 

 

To everything there is a risk. When u go out with your friends to have fun, there is a risk of having an accident in whatever u do. Whatever u do, there is a risk. In AFL, the risk is playing with veterans who throw at u harsh criticism. Theres all im merely trying to say. Most of us try to make it a fun and friendly place. Its only a certain number of people, and Im sure although u make it seem that harsh criticism happens alot (which is true), its only from the same few people, can u agree with me on that?

Edited by Biotics

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No, that was not what I meant. U shld treat a pug seriously if ur going to try and improve, dont u agree? leaving halfway, even for a minute, leaves ur team at a constant disadvantage. A minute is enough to push out from last and regain mid.


I do treat the pug seriously. My first point had always been: Is going away for a minute AT THE START OF A PUG AFTER EVERYONE'S BEEN PICKED AND BEFORE READY UP IS COMPLETED that wrong? That entire part was unnecessary. 

 

U said that admins werent the only source of mentoring. that means the only players, who are not admins, would only leave the puggers themselves. What point are u trying to make. Secondly, i believe some people are alr trying to help you out? or am I wrong? or is it because u havent actively seeked help from anyone?

What I'm trying to say is that I never made a point of asking for mentoring and shiz to be the only source of improvement, just that it COULD be a part of improvement instead of just criticising us with absolutely no factor of improvement in mind. And yes, I have asked some players for help, some of which have been quite nice to agree, some who rejected my request, but all in politeness. That partially contradicts my point yes. 

To everything there is a risk. When u go out with your friends to have fun, there is a risk of having an accident in whatever u do. Whatever u do, there is a risk. In AFL, the risk is playing with veterans who throw at u harsh criticism. Theres all im merely trying to say. Most of us try to make it a fun and friendly place. Its only a certain number of people, and Im sure although u make it seem that harsh criticism happens alot (which is true), its only from the same few people, can u agree with me on that?

Yeah, you're right on that one. Assumption does give me mistakes to deal with soz. 

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I do treat the pug seriously. My first point had always been: Is going away for a minute AT THE START OF A PUG AFTER EVERYONE'S BEEN PICKED AND BEFORE READY UP IS COMPLETED that wrong? That entire part was unnecessary. 

 

Still, did u mention it? I believe u shld have the decency to notify others if ur going away a while. If ur going away for 1 minute, how would others know ur not going to be afk for a long time then?

Edited by Biotics

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I do treat the pug seriously. My first point had always been: Is going away for a minute AT THE START OF A PUG AFTER EVERYONE'S BEEN PICKED AND BEFORE READY UP IS COMPLETED that wrong? That entire part was unnecessary. 
 
Still, did u mention it? I believe u shld have the decency to notify others if ur going away a while. If ur going away for 1 minute, how would others know ur not afk then?

 

 

Haha been a few times, and yes. I have told my teammates beforehand. Granted, sometimes I forget, but maybe it's impatience that motivates them to voteban after half a minute? Point taken anyways, thx. 

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At the end of the day, every community has its flaws. but I hope u realise tha although yes, this harsh criticism thing is bad and alot of it has been thrown around, they only come from a few black sheep, which people, even admins, cant really do much as they are technically not breaking any rules. Just ignore them, approach those that can help you, and take charge of your own learning. Thats ultimately what makes a good player. Feel free to add me up, i try and help u what I can and am able to.

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I think its right for me to say that, if you cannot handle the criticism and harsh comments (in this analogy slavery), while in the past everyone had to deal with it, there is a solution now to this "slavery" which is called "dont join the server"

 

Im not trying to say asiafortress is going to die, but honestly if you can accept harsh criticism, please do join our community and learn as much as u can from this critiques. if you cant, sorry, but u can always avoid to face the insults by simply not joining the server.

Except in the analogy of slavery, the equivalent of "don't join the server" is not living. Good interpretation.

 

I quote from Azazel

"Embrace the rage

 

Honestly, it's good for you"

for DLH. who wants to join a cancer pug, who wants to lose? heck i don't know anyone who does. so it's natural for veterans trying hard to win the pug to be angry at someone who cause them to lose or have been a burden throughout the duration of 30mins. taking stuff from aza again this 30 mins is precious. so obviously people would get angry.

I find it hard to take seriously, people who allow their happiness, satisfaction and personal growth to be hinged on other people's performance.

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Except in the analogy of slavery, the equivalent of "don't join the server" is not living. Good interpretation.

 

I think people can always just practice their basic dm in pub servers. Ur "not living" is = quit tf2

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In fact, this analogy is quite different from tf2 and cannot be used to compare them.

 

Ur analogy has 2 stages, facing slavery or not living at all.

 

Tf2 has 3. Pugging, pubbing, and quitting tf2

Edited by Biotics

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Dont blame us/them about how afl is dying because it isnt fully our/their fault that you guys cry about the vulgars that we/they give you.

 

Please dont think that you would be treated nicely when you are new to the pug. We/they expect you to know to know the basics rules of the

 

pug and competitive once you join in btw. Havent you realise that sometimes when they scold you they also point out mistakes that you

 

make over and over again? All of you are always keeping an eye out for words like "fking cancer" or "omg you suck" and then instantly think

 

"OMG WHY ARE VETERINARIANS SO MEAN TO ME ;(". I forgot to mention that it is also 'the new players' fault that afl is dying. Reason

 

being is that not many but a few of the veterans stopped pugging because there are so many of you guys who are arrogant and cant be

 

bothered. In a way, i feel you man. Let me share you a story from my experience ok!

 

I started out at around 2011 and joined afl pugs due to my urge to learn about competitive and be good at it. At the first few pugs that i

 

played, i received quite a lot of vulgarities from people who were better skilled than me. I really felt bad but i just ignored it and keep playing.

 

I did what almost any game addict would do and that is to study about it more than studying for exams. Every single day i would play at least

 

an hour of pug and then go to this very forum we are in now and look at some of the guides(i also watched esea games too). The End.

 

Moral of my short story > the shit talk you receive from them shouldnt stop you from improving ok? (if that is what you are achieving for).

 

You'll get the respect that you so desperately want when you show that you are willing enough to learn and you have improved. Oh and

 

what the fuck do you mean by cs:go is more accepting? You should feel lucky that asiafortress provides you with a forum that contains a lot

 

of funny topics and helpful guidelines. ALSO YOU SHOULD BE FUCKING GLAD THAT ASIAFORTRESS IS ALIVE BECAUSE WITHOUT

 

ALL OF THIS, YOU WOULDNT BE AS GOOD AS YOU ARE NOW RIGHT? #havesomerespect #30mins2writeallofthis

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Good day to you all, have to talk about a serious matter I've come across over the time I've been pugging. I'm now almost reaching the half-year mark of pugging with Asiafortress, have learnt a lot from it and met so many new people, give or take. I have gained a tremendous amount of experience, but I will relate to an occurrence last night which has given me the initiative to speak about this on here. 

 

I connected to a 6s pug server last night just for the heck of it, finished my homework for the night, just wanted a quick game before I went to bed for practice. As I connected, the server had 8 players on and counting. As we all know, there's a warmup period on the server before all 12 players have connected. I went onto my scout as I wanted to see whether my mge practice had done me any good from the previous days. We were playing viaduct, I started making my way to mid and immediately ran into teejay, who I took out with pure instinct and probably luck. Then came to another scout who I had a bit of trouble with due to my still developing aim. Eventually took him out as well, made it to mid where teejay had respawned and was coming back to mid. Admittedly, I spiked a bit during the fight but managed to take him down. He immediately responded by saying 'You lagging like dog'. Undeterred, I apologised and carried on. The server filled up, and we all rolled as per normal. Teams were formed, we then started readying up. I went down for a drink, coming back to find that people were already starting to voteban me. Not votekick, but voteban. I apologised and told them about the drink, readied up at once. teejay who was on Red then started saying on chat 'Y NO BAN HIM?' Teddybar who was in my team also joining in. I ignored this, but my friend Kyler who was also playing stood up for me by asking whether rehydration was a valid reason for banning me. I appreciated that immensely, always nice to see a friend standing up for me, but teejay and Teddybar then proceeded to voteban Kyler as well. Toshihiko who was in Blu as well then butted in by saying: 'Eh this not primary school anymore', which managed to shut Teddybar and teejay up for the time being.

The match started, everything going pretty smoothly, till the end of the first match which we had won. I had a pretty lousy match, dying quite a bit and not managing to get many picks and ending with a total of 6 points, the lowest on my team with the 2nd lowest being 8. Teddy then asked me: 'dlh what you doing whole match' which I promptly ignored. Then came a time where I tried to flank Red and get a good pick but died before I could do anything. Teddy had been telling me to go back where I thought I could do a better job upfront. When I died, he commented with a simple 'Idiot.' and played on. Toshi then switch to sniper halfway, which Teddy didn't approve of at all but said only this: 'Don't snipe now la, we already one scout useless' which was ignored for the rest of the match. Half an hour went along pretty quickly, we eventually lost to Red 3-2. 

 

Now coming back on topic, the above incident has been going on for me for quite awhile now. Everytime I pug, I'm sure to get criticised in some way or another. You guys are still wondering why Asiafortress isn't as populated as it was before? Take a good long look at the treatment of 'new' puggers nowadays and tell me why. I have few friends who left competitive TF2 simply for the reason of new players not being able to be accepted into the pugging community. 

 

I quote from a close friend of mine: 'Kinda left TF2 because new players aren't accepted into its community, and playing a game with no new people, in my category means it's dead. I moved into CS: GO simply because new players are embraced and accepted. I'm not new, was playing TF2 for several years now. It's just that AFL is dying, and you guys are treated badly. No matter how hard any new player tries, the famous ones are given the attention and glory regardless of skill. You should just join me here. It's amazing, wonderful, good community...'

 

Which brought me to the decision of making this thread, as I played my first CS: GO match yesterday cos of the message above, where I admittedly sucked. But most of the players on the server started giving me tips when I apologised for it being my first time playing CS, and I started to get the hang of the game much quicker than I ever have on pug servers. I don't mean to offend you guys, but it's just the way things are nowadays. 

 

Acceptance: 

We try our best in every pug match to improve ourselves game-wise. We practice in our own time on mge servers etc. so that we can get better in specific parts of or gameplay. Yet, it seems that the veterans still don't truly accept us into their pugging community, referring to us as the cancers and other unkindly names. Is it that we've done something to offend you guys in some way? Are we somehow affecting your gameplay simply because we aren't as good as we 'should' be? Not everyone is a natural gamer, some of us take time to learn and pick up gaming techniques. Some of us can't play as much and be good simply because we have a life dubbed reality, gaming being just a form of leisure. Whatever the reason, some of us simply can't get to level of 'good' playing in short amounts of time and this is where the problem starts. We aren't accepted into the pugging society because we're not 'good' enough for you guys. Even when we start developing, we are still shunned and picked only when there is no one 'better' to pick, or rarely when someone who has seen our previous gameplay and see potential in us for further improvement. Also in minot relation to last night's events, I was last pick from the +1 list, the person picked before me being some ^bC player. I ended up having more points and dm points than the person, despite having been picked last and being called names throughout the match, where I highly doubt he had the same experience. Another related matter to acceptance of new players, the players who are medding only pick the older puggers and the ones who have already made a name for themselves. This suppresses new puggers in the way that we don't get a proper game sense in pugs, we simply do not get a lot of playtime due to the fact that the medics don't pick us with reason standing that we aren't as good as the older players. When is it that we will be good enough for you guys to accept us as part of the community?

 

 

Understanding: 

Understand our current positions. We may have moved up to pugging from pubbing, or we could have come onto pugging without having a complete knowledge about the rollouts, rules etc. or like myself, we install TF2 and immediately move into pugging due to early introduction from our friends or smth. As the 'new' puggers, we started pugging pretty recently and are still trying if not struggling to fully understand the beautiful dynamics of the game that is Team Fortress 2. We are all still improving, like all humans failing and making mistakes along the way, but still improving all the same. Does this natural process give you older veteran puggers any right to call us 'cancer' and to mock us? I am aware that it's not all veterans who do this but a large enough number do, which is the reason I can mention this in particular. As the 'new' puggers, we look up to you guys. We try to pick up as many good tips from you guys, as many good habits as possible while spectating if we're not picked. This way, we're learning from observation, observing you. We would then try to execute these tactics and moves during gameplay, sometimes failing. We respect you guys for your time with TF2, which is why we admire your skills and all, but yelling at us when we fail to play 'properly' is not something we can learn from. Calling us names and jeering us will not help us improve in the least. Commenting on our 'pathetic' attempts and number of points, dm points etc. does not help us in the least. I have come across many players who make unnecessary comments on our gameplay some of which are very down putting. With them, we lose confidence in ourselves. Our self-esteem is lowered immensely and we do not have faith in ourselves to put on a good performance anymore. When we do get anything right or a good play, we get comments that label them 'lucky', which can be taking in the form of a joke, but sometimes it's just not funny to us. How do we stop screwing up if you guys don't stop putting our efforts down? 

 

I don't wish to bother the admins to do anything about this, nor do I expect all of the puggers to change their attitude towards us, but I just hope that you guys will understand how we feel when you guys treat us this way, and in hopes that we can eventually be accepted by you guys as a fellow pugger, no more a cancer or a burden. We do our best to keep our  unspoken promise to always try our best, to always improve. We all get over acrophobia simply because we're tired of always having standing up for ourselves every single time we pug. We're not asking for tips, coaching of any sort from you guys, but there's a fine line between constructive criticism and repetitive verbal harassment and unnecessary comments. We have a term for that: bullying. I do not have any right to label anyone a bully, but we 'new' puggers ask only for so little. 

 

All we ask of is the return of respect everyone deserves.

how old are you?

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Since it looks like I have to spell it out for you bio, allow me to ask; do you even analogue? The game's "stages" have absolutely nothing to do with your arbitrary "stages" of slavery.

 

A new pug player wants a community where they can play and improve without receiving UNNECESSARY vitriol. A community where said player feels a sense of belonging. A slave wants basic human dignity, respect, rights and remuneration for their service in their daily life. A life they feel is worth living.

In this analogy, telling a newer player to deal with it or quit is like telling a slave to deal with the injustices dealt to him/her or quit living.

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im not telling him to quit. Im telling him to go practice in pubs first before trying to even pug. its called prevention is better than cure

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im not telling him to quit. Im telling him to go practice in pubs first before trying to even pug. its called prevention is better than cure

+1 preventive and reactive measures

 

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