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DaLoneHuggable

Acceptance & Understanding of (New) Puggers

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Then came a time where I tried to flank Red and get a good pick but died before I could do anything. Teddy had been telling me to go back where I thought I could do a better job upfront. When I died, he commented with a simple 'Idiot.' and played on. Toshi then switch to sniper halfway, which Teddy didn't approve of at all but said only this: 'Don't snipe now la, we already one scout useless' which was ignored for the rest of the match. Half an hour went along pretty quickly, we eventually lost to Red 3-2. 

 

Just to clarity, when you tried to 'flank' red, I remember our whole team has just died, with our med and someone else just respawning. You were the only person up front, and the opponent already had the point. Seeing that we will be pushing again once everyone has respawned, I asked you to go back, but you decided to rambo 1v5 on whatever flank play you did. 

 

Seriously, you have been playing for quite awhile and there is 0 improvement. There's a point you just got to ask yourself "what the fuck am I doing wrong?!" I applaud your effort for taking each pug game seriously, but there's no point in 'serious' if you do not find out what the shit you are doing wrong and change that. 

 

Just to shed some light onto the logs for that game:

 

http://logs.tf/216013

Edited by Teddybar.
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Simple reason and not sure if someone already said this cos im too lazy to read all 6 pages but.... i think what Vets do and why they do it could be also due to the fact that most newbies are stubborn or were COD players (kids) who think their good and have a huge ego. I wont lie, even as a regular wif not much skill, i tend to rage at some newbs coming in,

 

1. When you tell them nicely they dun listen

2. They mock u by not giving heals or just going for frags on their on

3. Always sucking their own dicks.

 

Though the third point is kinda harsh i would say but its true. some of you guys may say that everyone has their ego, yes but if ur sucking ur own dick so much that u simply cant folo simple advice, u deserve the raging of the high ups imo.

 

And some of you may think, since when does Vets say things nicely. Yes, but i have seen the high ups actually talk nicely sometimes, sure they say harsh things, but why not use those criticism as something to motivate you to improve?

 

And just a simple advice for DLH, press tab every now and den. See ur team numbers and then make a decision. No point if u get the piks but no one is there to give support and folo up wif the aggression. 

 

Lastly, im not that skilled (said by some of you :( ) but i hope this has open eyes to newbies out there who want to try competitive scene in tf2. Whatever game u were good in before doesnt give u bragging rights or be stuck up. In fact even if u come from NA or Euro, you screw up, acknowledge and move on and improve :3

 

:D

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Just to clarity, when you tried to 'flank' red, I remember our whole team has just died, with our med and someone else just respawning. You were the only person up front, and the opponent already had the point. Seeing that we will be pushing again once everyone has respawned, I asked you to go back, but you decided to rambo 1v5 on whatever flank play you did. 

 

Seriously, you have been playing for quite awhile and there is 0 improvement. There's a point you just got to ask yourself "what the fuck am I doing wrong?!" I applaud your effort for taking each pug game seriously, but there's no point in 'serious' if you do not find out what the shit you are doing wrong and change that. 

 

Given, you may be right that I made the wrong decision in trying to 'rambo' Red. Doesn't give you ANY rights to rag on that point at all though. And there's your opinion which pretty much sums up all I'm disliking now about your mistreatment of 'newcomers'. How the f**k do you have any rights at all to say, much less know, that I haven't been improving at all?

 

DO you watch me fail every single match I play? No. 

DO you see me trailing mass numbers of points after each game? No. 

DO YOU FKING SEE ME MESSING UP EVERYTHING I DO? No. 

 

Point being, how the hell can you say that I am staying at a certain point? I myself, and I'm quite sure other puggers can also agree to, that I have been improving slowly, if not a lot, but at the very least I am still trying my best and listening to tips. I don't drop much anymore, which is a personal down for my med. My aim is pretty decent nowadays, better than when I began pugging. So just use your head to actually think for a second before trying to comment on whether I've been improving or not. 

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As to Dream, I do agree that some newbs can't really take advice as easily as others can, in which case is an exception to my point. I do agree that some vets still give constructive criticism, but just saying that we 'suck' and all doesn't help towards our self-confidence. I do believe that in order to perform well, we still need to believe that we are capable of doing things, even if it's not perfect yet. Also, comments and attitudes like Teddy's (which I can gladly quote his 'Seriously, you have been playing for quite awhile and there is 0 improvement') are simply putting our efforts down. Even if we're trying our best, we still get criticised in the way that doesn't give us one bit of motivation to improve. We all strive to improve, otherwise what else would we strive for? As for your point to me, I note it. We all make mistakes. Your explanation to me would be constructive imo, cos unlike Teddy's you actually give a reason as to why my attempt failed, and still criticises me in a way that I can acknowledge without feeling put down at all. 

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Given, you may be right that I made the wrong decision in trying to 'rambo' Red. Doesn't give you ANY rights to rag on that point at all though. And there's your opinion which pretty much sums up all I'm disliking now about your mistreatment of 'newcomers'. How the f**k do you have any rights at all to say, much less know, that I haven't been improving at all?

 

DO you watch me fail every single match I play? No. 

DO you see me trailing mass numbers of points after each game? No. 

DO YOU FKING SEE ME MESSING UP EVERYTHING I DO? No. 

 

Point being, how the hell can you say that I am staying at a certain point? I myself, and I'm quite sure other puggers can also agree to, that I have been improving slowly, if not a lot, but at the very least I am still trying my best and listening to tips. I don't drop much anymore, which is a personal down for my med. My aim is pretty decent nowadays, better than when I began pugging. So just use your head to actually think for a second before trying to comment on whether I've been improving or not. 

Yes. I watch you fail at every single game I've ever been in with you.

Yes. You are always on the bottom of the scoresheet.

Yes. Just name one play you have been successful at.

 

6 months of pugging, and getting 7k 32d on viaduct as a scout pretty much sums everything up. 

6 months of pugging, and your main improvement for medic is, dropping less.

 

I call it as I see it, and I don't get how I need any 'rights' to criticize, being that it is indeed my own personal opinion, which you are, of course, welcomed to disagree. Pugging in the past, there used to be a certain level of competence required from you. You were expected to know your shit, and it's your own damn fault if you get shitted upon. People who wanted to get better, did. Those who decided that pugging isn't for them, left. This current breed of newcomers who talk about 'respect' and to be how they deserve to be treated better just disgusts me to no end.

 

I asked you what the hell you were doing the whole round because round 1 ended in 5 minutes (which we won), and in that 5 minutes, not only did u get 0 kills, you got 0 points. I am *using my head to think right now* seriously wondering if all you are doing is just spawn, W, shootshootshoot or missmissmiss, die, repeat. If you could have answered "oh, I kept getting shutdown on the flank" or "oh, I kept dying when I tried to go in for a play", then, at least, I could at least try to advise you on what to do. Not replying just gives me the "f**k you all, I'm just here to do my shit and I don't care if we lose because I'm having fun" kind of attitude, which you see in abundance for many newcomers. 

 

You're not happy at people raging at you, do something dude. Watch your demos. Watch scrims. Watch videos with team comms. Do something, learn something. At the end of 6 months all you achieve is "I drop less ubers now". Seriously? Seriously?! I started off bad, and immediately knew that there was a lot going on that I didn't know. I asked people for advice; I made an effort to go into every game with the hope of achieving my personal set goals. I used to be shit at every class except medic. I still am pretty bad, but I'm trying to improve my positioning for different classes now.

 

One thing I can be sure of - typing an essay trying to seek justice and the acceptance is never going to work. You are playing a game, and the only way to shut asses like me up, is to prove yourself in game. Until then, I will still continue raging since that's what I seem to do best.

 

Cheers mate.

Edited by Teddybar.
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I'm quite sure other puggers can also agree to, that I havebeen improving slowly, if not a lot,

 

are these puggers from lowyat? (just asking) coz seems like they will call anyone who kills them 'god'

 

 

 

 I don't drop much anymore, which is a personal down for my med. 

 

if it's 6 months, u shudnt be dropping any uber

 

 

 

My aim is pretty decent nowadays,

 

once i was spectating you and i felt dizzy because of your ridiculously high sensitivity and the incapability of you hitting a stationary target

 

 

lastly,

 

(Spectator) nata de coco :[  ] :  here, have some milk

Edited by haluuuuu

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Just a question to "vets" out there, I'm pretty sure the invite pug system exists for u peeps to have high level games, why go play in normal pug servers and jizz on newbs there.

 

Also make mumble compulsory 

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Just a question to "vets" out there, I'm pretty sure the invite pug system exists for u peeps to have high level games, why go play in normal pug servers and jizz on newbs there.

 

Wait... let me see if I get this right. You're suggesting that, in order to play high level games, we need to find other servers? Give AF up to the newcomers who want to practise? You want AF to become another OAG or lowyat pug?

 

Same question to you, why do newbs who don't even know the basics of the game, want to play in AF pug when there are other 'newb' servers out there? You want respect, earn it. I know I'm always hard on newbs; I'm a keyboard raging warrior in-game. Some people in my friendlist aren't spared either. That's just the way I play.

 

I'm a sadist, and I love it when people rage at me, or criticize me. Reason? Because at that point, in-game, I immediately know that someone else isn't liking or agreeing to what I was doing. Least I know what I did was, maybe, not justified, or wrong. I then try not to repeat it. It take so much more time to find out your own mistakes and do self correction - I am extremely grateful to all who have criticized me and helped my in-game growth. But now, you get people here who can't stomach rage. They want to feel welcomed. They want to be part of the 'community'. 

 

Just yesterday, I was in a game with some guy called Apex (I think). He was pocket, on badlands, and on mid, a scout came from shed and began shooting at our med. Our med died due to the combined efforts of -6dmg shots and demo spam. I was scouting on fwd mid, and I still heard the cries of our medic behind our train. I ran back, but died too. When I asked Apex, "don't you realise your med is getting shot at?", he replied "how I know, he never call out." I then went on to ask, "can't you see his health dropping, or hear the 'uh uh' sounds he was making?" He proceeded to answer, "you so good, can hear the 'uh uh' sounds, you go help la!"

 

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but to see the level of play getting worse and worse, just disappoints me deeply. The ignorance newbs have towards the game is painful to bear. I am by no means a vet as I only joined the pug scene 3-4 years ago. AF was a tough place that molded me into a better player. I feed off criticism. I'm not trying to justify my 'raging' here, but it was helluva lot harsher back then. Think 11 Teddies against you if you're new. Now.. hais.. I shake my head.  -_-

Edited by Teddybar.

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Just some personal opinion

 

There's a difference in being bad and being cancer.

 

Being bad at the game = being bad at the game

Being cancer = being bad at the game + have a shit attitude

 

I remember few months back, you asked clover if he could play for your team. When he said no, you replied with something like "So do you think you're better than me?" Maybe you're not like this anymore, but seriously if you want respect the least you could do is not be so arrogant(especially cos you're new??)? Yes, sometimes people can be harsh when they try and help you. But why focus on the harsh words when there is something to learn from? I'm sure there's nobody out there who only insults you w/o giving any sort of advice throughout a 30 minutes round. Take this forum thread for example.

 

Seriously, you have been playing for quite awhile and there is 0 improvement. There's a point you just got to ask yourself "what the fuck am I doing wrong?!" I applaud your effort for taking each pug game seriously, but there's no point in 'serious' if you do not find out what the shit you are doing wrong and change that. 

 

Do you really think he's really trying to put you down by saying you didn't improve at all? Why focus on the "insults"? He mentioned "There's a point you just got to ask yourself "what the fuck am I doing wrong?!" I applaud your effort for taking each pug game seriously, but there's no point in 'serious' if you do not find out what the shit you are doing wrong and change that." There's a reason why people rage at you. What teddy means is that you should find out what you did wrong; why are they unhappy with me? And through that improve on what you did wrong.

 

Maybe you would like the criticisms to be less harsh. But dude, this is the internet. There's no law saying that "you cannot insult others" or some shit like that. Basically, you can't do anything about it. So what I think you should do is: Don't argue back, Ignore the "insults"(if it really bothers you so much), and really focus on improving based on the advices people give you. I genuinely appreciate it when people raged at me when I first came to pug. Why? Without them I would still be at shit level. Now I'm at a pretty shit level, but still trying to improve. I don't mean any offence, hope you find this post useful in helping you understand what we're trying to say.

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Just a question to "vets" out there, I'm pretty sure the invite pug system exists for u peeps to have high level games, why go play in normal pug servers and jizz on newbs there.

 

Also make mumble compulsory 

 

Did you remember when we made it compulsory in the past? 

 

Let me tell you what happened: nobody gave a shit.

 

If we're going to be serious about this the community needs to be serious about it too. It can't just be the admins. In HK pugs, everyone goes mumble and doesn't start until the last person gets in mumble. We're willing to give it another shot, but the community needs to show more effort. 

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Did you remember when we made it compulsory in the past? 

 

Let me tell you what happened: nobody gave a shit.

 

If we're going to be serious about this the community needs to be serious about it too. It can't just be the admins. In HK pugs, everyone goes mumble and doesn't start until the last person gets in mumble. We're willing to give it another shot, but the community needs to show more effort. 

I agree with shounic on the lack of effort in the community to try to go into mumble that AF provides ( afl server 1 mumble channel etc)

 

I dun see how its such a tough thing to do. just go into mumble before u start the game and just join the server mumble to make thing easier

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I understand your situation, DLH. Sure. You don't like getting raged at. I don't either.

 

I take it in. I remembered when I started out, I was Scouting, and rufus, if I remembered correctly, raged at me. It wasn't exactly a rage, wasn't even on his bad side. I still took it in. 

 

Look at me now, I still don't get picked in pugs (last pick). b-but, I THINK I IMPROVED.

 

And the only class I can play decently is Scout,  I really can't play other classes such as Roamer, Demo. (and people say i still cant play scout)

 

But. The sole point of all of this is, those people better than you, those who rage at you, they're like your older brother/sister skillwise. They want the best from you. If they were really that bad, they wouldn't even bother giving you advice. They'll just let you be. *This post may also not make sense whatsoever, I only read the first 5 pages. That's what I know about,

 

 

******No one really cares about my post************

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Did you remember when we made it compulsory in the past? 

 

Let me tell you what happened: nobody gave a shit.

 

If we're going to be serious about this the community needs to be serious about it too. It can't just be the admins. In HK pugs, everyone goes mumble and doesn't start until the last person gets in mumble. We're willing to give it another shot, but the community needs to show more effort. 

That's partly why admins are there too in the server. Someones not in Mumble? Kick and forget, if they want to play, too bad, get mumble. 

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That's partly why admins are there too in the server. Someones not in Mumble? Kick and forget, if they want to play, too bad, get mumble. 

 

THIS THIS THIS

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Wait... let me see if I get this right. You're suggesting that, in order to play high level games, we need to find other servers? Give AF up to the newcomers who want to practise? You want AF to become another OAG or lowyat pug?

 

Give up the AF servers for new-comers? What? There's a server(aka #0) with a very strict whitelist that is specifically for well-organised PuGs with comms and a certain standard of play. If you want an invite to the invite group, talk to an admin.

 

Arjun has a point. If everyone complaining in here about new players ruining all the fun is too lazy to go and get enough people into #0 for a good game, they deserve to have their blood pressure hit the roof from their uncontrollable rage. If all people want to do is stack teams and roll newbies in non-invite servers, they deserve to have their "fun" ruined by the newbies that will potentially be on their team.

 

tl;dr -  Stop whining and go organise your own damn "good games"; we've had this server provision up for ages but no one thinks to use it.

 

 

That's partly why admins are there too in the server. Someones not in Mumble? Kick and forget, if they want to play, too bad, get mumble. 

 

Because of the status quo. It worked for HK, because it has been enforced right since the beginning for their AF servers.

The Singapore servers have been running for years now with barely any mumble regulations, and people are used to it being that way. Convince more than a mere handful of people to accept consistent mumble usage for PuGs and then we can think about enforcing it.

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That's partly why admins are there too in the server. Someones not in Mumble? Kick and forget, if they want to play, too bad, get mumble. 

 

 

The point is that admins are not going to be there all the time, so it's up to the players to enforce it too. (which last time they didn't at all.)

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Give up the AF servers for new-comers? What? There's a server(aka #0) with a very strict whitelist that is specifically for well-organised PuGs with comms and a certain standard of play. If you want an invite to the invite group, talk to an admin.

 

Arjun has a point. If everyone complaining in here about new players ruining all the fun is too lazy to go and get enough people into #0 for a good game, they deserve to have their blood pressure hit the roof from their uncontrollable rage. If all people want to do is stack teams and roll newbies in non-invite servers, they deserve to have their "fun" ruined by the newbies that will potentially be on their team.

 

tl;dr -  Stop whining and go organise your own damn "good games"; we've had this server provision up for ages but no one thinks to use it.

 

 

 

To be fair, the invite pug group is too small. We need to look into accepting more people and make it more active.

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The point is that admins are not going to be there all the time, so it's up to the players to enforce it too. (which last time they didn't at all.)

and when they are in the server they can be like, '(TEAM) xxxxxxx :  fuck la just throw game faster finish'?

 

anyway, i do agree we shud enforce the compulsory mumble thing, just that players have to be patient to let ppl join mumble, instead of urging others to ready up ready up and ready up

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Rage is powah, use it to improve DLH. Dun whine here on the forums. Thats what I did (still gets shit on tho) I remembered my 1st pug when I went battle med and got scolded bad. I tried to improve slowly thru criticism (still shit tho) and now i dun get scolded often. Just improve the gamesense and you would not be scolded by the vets. :)

Edited by CreatizTheWhalelord
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=snip=

 

Good day to you, DLH.

 

I haven't read all the comments but I get your general idea. I get the fact that you seem to greatly dislike the fact that everyone shit talks when you do something wrong or something you're incapable of doing. Or, something you don't know about. 

 

First things, first. 

I started pugging February of 2013. Coming into the servers, I was a horrible player. My dm was horrible, my gamesense was horrible, my everything was horrible. I even had fucked up hats.

People yelled at me in voice chat, people used oh-so-many capital letters in text chat. It was quite bad. I remember playing one game, and then having to leave halfway and getting banned because of it. This is just how most people start their pugging career, am I right? Right now, I'm a better player and a better person because of the criticism and hateful comments aimed at me. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I used to hate it at times, in pugs. I used to grit my teeth when insults were thrown at me. But I never ignored them, nor did I forget them. Because however harsh and demeaning they were, people always had something to say that would help me improve how I learned. I had a serious argument with a couple of people in the AF community like k1nfran and spammah. I now realize, even they were doing stuff wrong, I wasn't perfect either. You make your argument seem as if this problem of you getting yelled at, is nothing to do you with you other than your dm and gamesense.

 

You're wrong. 

 

Couple of tips for you. 

  1. Stop being so defensive when someone tells you something, in a positive way or an unkind way. Just take it, see how you went wrong, and learn from your mistakes. 
  2. You seem to be saying sorry for all the wrong reasons. You shouldn't be saying sorry when someone says you're "lagging like a dog". There's nothing to apologize for: it was a plain and simple comment directed at your internet, not you or your skill.

    "dlh what you doing the entire match" was what Teddy asked you after that. Although not the nicest way to ask you, it was still a valid question or a comment to which you could have replied "sorry what do I do". But instead, you ignored his comment and from how you described it, seemed to continue doing what you were doing.

  3.  

    Teddy then asked me: 'dlh what you doing whole match' which I promptly ignored. Then came a time where I tried to flank Red and get a good pick but died before I

    could do anything. Teddy had been telling me to go back where I thought I could do a better job upfront. When I died, he commented with a simple 'Idiot.' and played on.

    Alright let me ask you, who is the more experienced player in this context? Obvsiously, Teddy. Now when Teddy was telling you to "go back", which you seemed to ignore, he's teaching you how to play properly. He may be yelling or saying so unkindly, but he wouldn't tell you to do something that would get you killed or get the team to fail, now would he. The fact that he told you to come back means that he probably knows that you were going to fail: either because you already had a track record throughout the match of failing, or perhaps more likely that, the other team was aware of your presence/your team was falling back and couldn't support you. There are countless reasons why he would tell you to retreat but as you have made it clear, you seem to ignore advice unless it is handed to you on a silver platter with a cherry on top. 

    You should listen to what older and more experienced players have to say about your performance because whatever they say is invaluable in how much you improve. Never ignore it and never write it off as just the other player's bad attitude. Sure, it's that too. But there's a limit to how many times someone can spoon feed you information and advice. 

     

    I don't know where I'm going with this, just yeah. Bye.

Edited by SakiIsa
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