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DaLoneHuggable

Acceptance & Understanding of (New) Puggers

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Good day to you all, have to talk about a serious matter I've come across over the time I've been pugging. I'm now almost reaching the half-year mark of pugging with Asiafortress, have learnt a lot from it and met so many new people, give or take. I have gained a tremendous amount of experience, but I will relate to an occurrence last night which has given me the initiative to speak about this on here. 

 

I connected to a 6s pug server last night just for the heck of it, finished my homework for the night, just wanted a quick game before I went to bed for practice. As I connected, the server had 8 players on and counting. As we all know, there's a warmup period on the server before all 12 players have connected. I went onto my scout as I wanted to see whether my mge practice had done me any good from the previous days. We were playing viaduct, I started making my way to mid and immediately ran into teejay, who I took out with pure instinct and probably luck. Then came to another scout who I had a bit of trouble with due to my still developing aim. Eventually took him out as well, made it to mid where teejay had respawned and was coming back to mid. Admittedly, I spiked a bit during the fight but managed to take him down. He immediately responded by saying 'You lagging like dog'. Undeterred, I apologised and carried on. The server filled up, and we all rolled as per normal. Teams were formed, we then started readying up. I went down for a drink, coming back to find that people were already starting to voteban me. Not votekick, but voteban. I apologised and told them about the drink, readied up at once. teejay who was on Red then started saying on chat 'Y NO BAN HIM?' Teddybar who was in my team also joining in. I ignored this, but my friend Kyler who was also playing stood up for me by asking whether rehydration was a valid reason for banning me. I appreciated that immensely, always nice to see a friend standing up for me, but teejay and Teddybar then proceeded to voteban Kyler as well. Toshihiko who was in Blu as well then butted in by saying: 'Eh this not primary school anymore', which managed to shut Teddybar and teejay up for the time being.

The match started, everything going pretty smoothly, till the end of the first match which we had won. I had a pretty lousy match, dying quite a bit and not managing to get many picks and ending with a total of 6 points, the lowest on my team with the 2nd lowest being 8. Teddy then asked me: 'dlh what you doing whole match' which I promptly ignored. Then came a time where I tried to flank Red and get a good pick but died before I could do anything. Teddy had been telling me to go back where I thought I could do a better job upfront. When I died, he commented with a simple 'Idiot.' and played on. Toshi then switch to sniper halfway, which Teddy didn't approve of at all but said only this: 'Don't snipe now la, we already one scout useless' which was ignored for the rest of the match. Half an hour went along pretty quickly, we eventually lost to Red 3-2. 

 

Now coming back on topic, the above incident has been going on for me for quite awhile now. Everytime I pug, I'm sure to get criticised in some way or another. You guys are still wondering why Asiafortress isn't as populated as it was before? Take a good long look at the treatment of 'new' puggers nowadays and tell me why. I have few friends who left competitive TF2 simply for the reason of new players not being able to be accepted into the pugging community. 

 

I quote from a close friend of mine: 'Kinda left TF2 because new players aren't accepted into its community, and playing a game with no new people, in my category means it's dead. I moved into CS: GO simply because new players are embraced and accepted. I'm not new, was playing TF2 for several years now. It's just that AFL is dying, and you guys are treated badly. No matter how hard any new player tries, the famous ones are given the attention and glory regardless of skill. You should just join me here. It's amazing, wonderful, good community...'

 

Which brought me to the decision of making this thread, as I played my first CS: GO match yesterday cos of the message above, where I admittedly sucked. But most of the players on the server started giving me tips when I apologised for it being my first time playing CS, and I started to get the hang of the game much quicker than I ever have on pug servers. I don't mean to offend you guys, but it's just the way things are nowadays. 

 

Acceptance: 

We try our best in every pug match to improve ourselves game-wise. We practice in our own time on mge servers etc. so that we can get better in specific parts of or gameplay. Yet, it seems that the veterans still don't truly accept us into their pugging community, referring to us as the cancers and other unkindly names. Is it that we've done something to offend you guys in some way? Are we somehow affecting your gameplay simply because we aren't as good as we 'should' be? Not everyone is a natural gamer, some of us take time to learn and pick up gaming techniques. Some of us can't play as much and be good simply because we have a life dubbed reality, gaming being just a form of leisure. Whatever the reason, some of us simply can't get to level of 'good' playing in short amounts of time and this is where the problem starts. We aren't accepted into the pugging society because we're not 'good' enough for you guys. Even when we start developing, we are still shunned and picked only when there is no one 'better' to pick, or rarely when someone who has seen our previous gameplay and see potential in us for further improvement. Also in minot relation to last night's events, I was last pick from the +1 list, the person picked before me being some ^bC player. I ended up having more points and dm points than the person, despite having been picked last and being called names throughout the match, where I highly doubt he had the same experience. Another related matter to acceptance of new players, the players who are medding only pick the older puggers and the ones who have already made a name for themselves. This suppresses new puggers in the way that we don't get a proper game sense in pugs, we simply do not get a lot of playtime due to the fact that the medics don't pick us with reason standing that we aren't as good as the older players. When is it that we will be good enough for you guys to accept us as part of the community?

 

 

Understanding: 

Understand our current positions. We may have moved up to pugging from pubbing, or we could have come onto pugging without having a complete knowledge about the rollouts, rules etc. or like myself, we install TF2 and immediately move into pugging due to early introduction from our friends or smth. As the 'new' puggers, we started pugging pretty recently and are still trying if not struggling to fully understand the beautiful dynamics of the game that is Team Fortress 2. We are all still improving, like all humans failing and making mistakes along the way, but still improving all the same. Does this natural process give you older veteran puggers any right to call us 'cancer' and to mock us? I am aware that it's not all veterans who do this but a large enough number do, which is the reason I can mention this in particular. As the 'new' puggers, we look up to you guys. We try to pick up as many good tips from you guys, as many good habits as possible while spectating if we're not picked. This way, we're learning from observation, observing you. We would then try to execute these tactics and moves during gameplay, sometimes failing. We respect you guys for your time with TF2, which is why we admire your skills and all, but yelling at us when we fail to play 'properly' is not something we can learn from. Calling us names and jeering us will not help us improve in the least. Commenting on our 'pathetic' attempts and number of points, dm points etc. does not help us in the least. I have come across many players who make unnecessary comments on our gameplay some of which are very down putting. With them, we lose confidence in ourselves. Our self-esteem is lowered immensely and we do not have faith in ourselves to put on a good performance anymore. When we do get anything right or a good play, we get comments that label them 'lucky', which can be taking in the form of a joke, but sometimes it's just not funny to us. How do we stop screwing up if you guys don't stop putting our efforts down? 

 

I don't wish to bother the admins to do anything about this, nor do I expect all of the puggers to change their attitude towards us, but I just hope that you guys will understand how we feel when you guys treat us this way, and in hopes that we can eventually be accepted by you guys as a fellow pugger, no more a cancer or a burden. We do our best to keep our  unspoken promise to always try our best, to always improve. We all get over acrophobia simply because we're tired of always having standing up for ourselves every single time we pug. We're not asking for tips, coaching of any sort from you guys, but there's a fine line between constructive criticism and repetitive verbal harassment and unnecessary comments. We have a term for that: bullying. I do not have any right to label anyone a bully, but we 'new' puggers ask only for so little. 

 

All we ask of is the return of respect everyone deserves.

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Let me try to address some of your questions from someone who has been in the community for roughly 1.5 years

 

Are we somehow affecting your gameplay simply because we aren't as good as we 'should' be? Not everyone is a natural gamer, some of us take time to learn and pick up gaming techniques. Some of us can't play as much and be good simply because we have a life dubbed reality, gaming being just a form of leisure.

 

The 1st question is just contradictory. May I ask u if u know what game we are playing? Thats right, its called TEAM fortress 2. TEAM BRO TEAM. If you are not good enough isnt it common sense you are affecting how others are playing?

 

For your 3rd statement. May I ask you 2 questions. 1. Do you honestly think the rest of the people in this community DO NOT have a life as well? This is such a self centered statement. Dude, everyone here has a life and scarce time for play. The fact that some of you do not know how to play, makes the pug not much of a learning experience for these veterans, and thus it is YOU GUYS who are wasting their time in life. Comprehend what im saying? 2nd question. U said u play this game for leisure. point taken. Then why are u playing a COMPETETIVE form of TF2 when u are playing it for leisure??? Everyone here has their own self interest to improve and be the best they can be. honestly if ur here just for leisure, pub servers are more suitable for you dont you think?

 

we are still shunned and picked only when there is no one 'better' to pick, or rarely when someone who has seen our previous gameplay and see potential in us for further improvement.

 

i believe people who are trying to play the best pug they can will pick the veterans. it is only when u have good players around do u actually truly see whats wrong with ur gameplay and such. Honestly if u want to improve, u shld play with people ur own skill level first. HOW to do so u may ask? Easy, find a scrim / mix with people around ur skill level, and constantly review ur demos afterwards, possibly with a mentor who is kind enough to guide you.

 

This suppresses new puggers in the way that we don't get a proper game sense in pugs, we simply do not get a lot of playtime due to the fact that the medics don't pick us with reason standing that we aren't as good as the older players. When is it that we will be good enough for you guys to accept us as part of the community?

 

Like I said, get scrims / mixes with people around ur skill level. Once u deem urself good enough, try pugging with the veterans. Enough whining about when people will accept you. Why dont u switch ur mentality to " Im going to improve so much that 1 day Ill show them that I can be better" Sounds like a funny mentality, but its still better than whining dont u agree?

 

 We may have moved up to pugging from pubbing, or we could have come onto pugging without having a complete knowledge about the rollouts, rules etc. or like myself, we install TF2 and immediately move into pugging due to early introduction from our friends or smth. 

 

Ur friends who introduce you to TF2 shld have the common sense and decency to either teach u the basics of rollouts, picking system, pugs overall etc OR link you to the asiafortress website for guides and such. There is absolutely no excuse for you to come in without any prior knowledge to pugging. Its a passworded server for gods sake.

 

We are all still improving, like all humans failing and making mistakes along the way, but still improving all the same. Does this natural process give you older veteran puggers any right to call us 'cancer' and to mock us? I am aware that it's not all veterans who do this but a large enough number do, which is the reason I can mention this in particular. As the 'new' puggers, we look up to you guys. We try to pick up as many good tips from you guys, as many good habits as possible while spectating if we're not picked. This way, we're learning from observation, observing you. We would then try to execute these tactics and moves during gameplay, sometimes failing. We respect you guys for your time with TF2, which is why we admire your skills and all, but yelling at us when we fail to play 'properly' is not something we can learn from. Calling us names and jeering us will not help us improve in the least. Commenting on our 'pathetic' attempts and number of points, dm points etc. does not help us in the least. I have come across many players who make unnecessary comments on our gameplay some of which are very down putting. 

 

Learn to take this in your stride. I have been a victim of this once, but honestly why the f*ck would u care? if your purpose is to show off, let the veterans know you for being "pro" and to be recognised in the community then i guess you would be affected. BUT if your PURPOSE of pugging is to IMPROVE, let me ask u WHY THE F*CK WOULD U CARE??? Ignore these comments, approach those who are willing to help, and your problem of losing confidence is solved.

 

but I just hope that you guys will understand how we feel when you guys treat us this way, and in hopes that we can eventually be accepted by you guys as a fellow pugger,

 

Once again a very self centered statement. U shld also know how it feels for the veterans to constantly be affected because of your unexperienced plays and decisions. Face the facts, if your not as good as others, ur a burden. Sorry for being blunt but its the truth. So once u understand how others are feeling, you will realise that its actually hard for the veterans to put on a fake smiling face, carefully spoonfeed you, and use their little amount of time to try and mentor and teach you.

 

I hope that you realise I am in no way trying to criticise you as a person, but I hope from the time I have taken to read your comments and reply them, you too would read them as well, and perhaps gain some insight to the problems this community is having. No doubt to keep this community alive we have to keep gaining new players, but if it just means having to go to so much trouble just to help those new players get their shit tgt, then sometimes its just not worth it.

Edited by Biotics
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Quoting from your statements above and responding with my opinion. Responding to Biotics. 


 


The 1st question is just contradictory. May I ask u if u know what game we are playing? Thats right, its called TEAM fortress 2. TEAM BRO TEAM. If you are not good enough isnt it common sense you are affecting how others are playing?


Just because we're not good enough doesn't mean that we're affecting YOUR gameplay. We're merely affecting the teams' performance, in absolutely no way affecting YOU as a person. If it's just the team, pugging is after all not just about winning. We are all still learning from bad plays and mistakes. 

 


For your 3rd statement. May I ask you 2 questions. 1. Do you honestly think the rest of the people in this community DO NOT have a life as well? This is such a self centered statement. Dude, everyone here has a life and scarce time for play. The fact that some of you do not know how to play, makes the pug not much of a learning experience for this veterans, and thus it is YOU GUYS who are wasting their time in life. Comprehend what im saying? 2nd question. U said u play this game for leisure. point take. Then why are u playing a COMPETETIVE form of TF2 when u are playing it for leisure??? Everyone here has their own self interest to improve and be the best they can be. honestly if ur here just for leisure, pub servers are more suitable for you dont you think?


Self centred in what way? I'm speaking for the rest of us out there who are constantly taunted for not 'being on the level'. We try our best to pick up everything, but we need time to progress on with our game. We can't be expected to jump into the thick and have maxed out skills and stuff just to suit you older players. Playing this game for leisure can have several different meanings. I refer to playing competitive TF2 as leisure cos we want an organised way to play with other players. We're not just here for leisure. You misunderstand my words. We play in our LEISURELY time, making it a leisure due to our wanting to spend time on improving ourselves. 

 


i believe people who are trying to play the best pug they can will pick the veterans. it is only when u have good players around do u actually truly see whats wrong with ur gameplay and such. Honestly if u want to improve, u shld play with people ur own skill level first. HOW to do so u may ask? Easy, find a scrim / mix with people around ur skill level, and constantly review ur demos afterwards, possibly with a mentor who is kind enough to guide you.


I agree with your point that we can improve more when we are around good players, but how much chance is there for every individual who wants to play with good players to actually get to play? Some of us have already formed teams of our own as little known as it may be, but scrims prove to be in vain as there is a minuscule amount of players who actually WANT to play competitive TF2 from the treatment of new players. And in terms of mentors? I can safely say that few veterans would actually care about the welfare of the players, seeing that even the smallest of mistakes are met with criticism, and criticism alone. There are a handful of veterans who would actually give tips, but rare is it to see one who is willing to spend time with you to mentor you as a gamer. 

 


Like I said, get scrims / mixes with people around ur skill level. Once u deem urself good enough, try pugging with the veterans. Enough whining about when people will accept you. Why dont u switch ur mentality to " Im going to improve so much that 1 day Ill show them that I can be better" Sounds like a funny mentality, but its still better than whining dont u agree?


Haha yea I answered the first part already. What right do the veterans have to pug ONLY amongst themselves? We are not whining about anything, simply asking the question: What gives you the rights to demean us as new players? If it is anyone who is whining, it is the veterans who whine about us playing with them, and not being able to reach their standards. Teddy already proves a perfect example of this. We do improve, in fact some of us have already improved so much to the extent that we are better than some older players. Yet, we are not given as much of a chance as the others are. The older players make mistakes sometimes, they just laugh it off and everyone's fine. When we make mistakes, everyone heaves a sigh of exasperation and starts commenting or simply keep quiet but in their own way criticises us. We all get better, just take a look at Bokonon and I. He started awhile earlier than I did, both of us slowly improving in our own ways, no longer the low-scoring ones. And still we are regarded as the tier lower than the veterans. 

 

Ur friends who introduce you to TF2 shld have the common sense and decency to either teach u the basics of rollouts, picking system, pugs overall etc OR link you to the asiafortress website for guides and such. There is absolutely no excuse for you to come in without any prior knowledge to pugging. Its a passworded server for gods sake.

I never mentioned that we had absolutely NO idea of the basics, we know them, just that we can't perfectly execute everything all the time. Many times I've come across players who roll slowly and get yelled at. I keep quiet most of these times, but I know how bad it can hurt sometimes. Your argument is invalid. 

 


Learn to take this in your stride. I have been a victim of this once, but honestly why the f*ck would u care? if your purpose is to show off, let the veterans know you for being "pro" and to be recognised in the community then i guess you would be affected. BUT if your PURPOSE of pugging is to IMPROVE, let me ask u WHY THE F*CK WOULD U CARE??? Ignore these comments, approach those who are willing to help, and your problem of losing confidence is solved.


Never mentioned anything about showing off? 0o We just want the same amount of respect you guys are getting, that's all. This is just like bullying. You can't just ignore the comments. Even if you keep quiet, you can't just pretend nothing happened. Approach those who are willing to help? Haha sorry, but the market is low on that supply. I have met some pretty awesome puggers who have tried to help me improve, but that's only a small number of players. 

 

Once again a very self centered statement. U shld also know how it feels for the veterans to constantly be affected because of your unexperienced plays and decisions. Face the facts, if your not as good as others, ur a burden. Sorry for being blunt but its the truth. So once u understand how others are feeling, you will realise that its actually hard for the veterans to put on a fake smiling face, carefully spoonfeed you, and use their little amount of time to try and mentor and teach you.

I feel you guys, especially when we mess up and shiz but if we're a burden, you can't just criticise us and expect us to get better from your yelling. Spoonfeed us? In what way have you guys spoon fed us anything??? As I have said many times, pretty much NONE of you guys actually use your time to mentor and teach us, even if we come your way. 

 

Reading through your comment, I understand that you guys have to put SOME effort into getting new players to be comfortable in joining competitive TF2, but at the very least, don't just criticise, try to actually give us some tips that will help us become a better player. 




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You both have a point, but as it stands both sides have to swallow their ego. The older people have to be more accepting and willing to teach, but the new players need to be more open minded and have commitment. <- The reason many pros have stopped trying to mentor is because the results doesn't match the effort. A lot of new players take advice in one ear and out the other, and it's bullshit. This isn't just a AF thing, even your school teachers will get mad when you keep making the same mistakes right?

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I think you should mge first and you should be responsible to people who are new that you invited to pugs.

Edited by akisaur

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You both have a point, but as it stands both sides have to swallow their ego. The older people have to be more accepting and willing to teach, but the new players need to be more open minded and have commitment. <- The reason many pros have stopped trying to mentor is because the results doesn't match the effort. A lot of new players take advice in one ear and out the other, and it's bullshit. This isn't just a AF thing, even your school teachers will get mad when you keep making the same mistakes right?

 

​I get your point, but it's not just new players now. Some of us who joined late last year have been playing for AT LEAST 4-5 months now, and are still being treated badly even if we take all advice and try to practice the tips we are given. 

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I think you should mge first and you should be responsible to people who are new that you invited to pugs. 

 

 

Agree with your point that not just ANYONE should get invited into pugs. Some of the more 'cancer' players often come in just knowing the password, but that's not the point I'm arguing for. Generalisation means nothing if less than half of the players you are talking about actually fit your description. It is the presumption that new players can't play a decent game with their own set of skills that really kills it in the end. We can all reach that level, it's always just a matter of time. 

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Just because we're not good enough doesn't mean that we're affecting YOUR gameplay. We're merely affecting the teams' performance, in absolutely no way affecting YOU as a person. If it's just the team, pugging is after all not just about winning. We are all still learning from bad plays and mistakes. 

 

Your actions in game will definitely affect how others are playing. Its a fact, face it. if you didnt do this, others wouldnt have to do that etc. I didnt say it affects people as a person, its affects them according to how they play the game. 

 

Self centred in what way? I'm speaking for the rest of us out there who are constantly taunted for not 'being on the level'. We try our best to pick up everything, but we need time to progress on with our game. We can't be expected to jump into the thick and have maxed out skills and stuff just to suit you older players. Playing this game for leisure can have several different meanings. I refer to playing competitive TF2 as leisure cos we want an organised way to play with other players. We're not just here for leisure. You misunderstand my words. We play in our LEISURELY time, making it a leisure due to our wanting to spend time on improving ourselves. 

 

Like I said, everyone in this community has their own self interests. And like you said, you guys have limited time, and so does everyone else here playing this very game. If you guys are afraid of being taunted, go scrim against other players of your own skill level. No one is asking you to suit them, just dont play with these people and scrim for yourselves. Point taken for your 3rd last to last statement.

 


I agree with your point that we can improve more when we are around good players, but how much chance is there for every individual who wants to play with good players to actually get to play? Some of us have already formed teams of our own as little known as it may be, but scrims prove to be in vain as there is a minuscule amount of players who actually WANT to play competitive TF2 from the treatment of new players. And in terms of mentors? I can safely say that few veterans would actually care about the welfare of the players, seeing that even the smallest of mistakes are met with criticism, and criticism alone. There are a handful of veterans who would actually give tips, but rare is it to see one who is willing to spend time with you to mentor you as a gamer. 

 

Are you sure there are very few new players around here. I can bet with you there are many people here and its easy to get a mix. find 12 of these people from the "say hi" section and your set to go. If time is an issue, you dont have to scrim everyday. find  a day once a week to do so. Ur actions and willingness to find people to play against is what will improve yourself as a player. And to add on, although u say there only a few willing mentors, while it is true, there are still people around to help you. you said u have been here for half a year? Surely u know 1-2 people who can help u. Why not approach them? Why complain here?

 

Haha yea I answered the first part already. What right do the veterans have to pug ONLY amongst themselves? We are not whining about anything, simply asking the question: What gives you the rights to demean us as new players? If it is anyone who is whining, it is the veterans who whine about us playing with them, and not being able to reach their standards. Teddy already proves a perfect example of this. We do improve, in fact some of us have already improved so much to the extent that we are better than some older players. Yet, we are not given as much of a chance as the others are. The older players make mistakes sometimes, they just laugh it off and everyone's fine. When we make mistakes, everyone heaves a sigh of exasperation and starts commenting or simply keep quiet but in their own way criticises us. We all get better, just take a look at Bokonon and I. He started awhile earlier than I did, both of us slowly improving in our own ways, no longer the low-scoring ones. And still we are regarded as the tier lower than the veterans. 

 

WAIT ARE U ACTUALLY SAYING U ARE NOT NEW? ARE U SAYING U HAVE EXPERIENCE SUCH THAT U DEEM URSELF AS DECENT PLAYERS? IF SO, WHY ARE VETERANS STILL SAYING MEAN STUFF ABOUT U. I SERIOUSLY DONT THINK THEY SAY THAT FOR FUN EXCUSE ME. And umm, did u honestly, really, just say that bokonon and u are... veterans. Im sorry. I cant. Just cant. rebutt this. My mind is blown.

 

I never mentioned that we had absolutely NO idea of the basics, we know them, just that we can't perfectly execute everything all the time. Many times I've come across players who roll slowly and get yelled at. I keep quiet most of these times, but I know how bad it can hurt sometimes. Your argument is invalid. 

 

If u know u rollout slowly, there is something called a create server option which allows u to perfect ur rollout without being scolded nor bitched not laughed at by anyone else.

 

Never mentioned anything about showing off? 0o We just want the same amount of respect you guys are getting, that's all. This is just like bullying. You can't just ignore the comments. Even if you keep quiet, you can't just pretend nothing happened. Approach those who are willing to help? Haha sorry, but the market is low on that supply. I have met some pretty awesome puggers who have tried to help me improve, but that's only a small number of players. 

 

Dude, no one in this world is perfect. how can u expect others to use their precious time just to help you. It seems from your argument that u want more people to be kinder and help others. though that obviously is a better world, it isnt reality. No one has the time to do so, neither is everyone kind enough. this is reality, face it. 

 

I feel you guys, especially when we mess up and shiz but if we're a burden, you can't just criticise us and expect us to get better from your yelling. Spoonfeed us? In what way have you guys spoon fed us anything??? As I have said many times, pretty much NONE of you guys actually use your time to mentor and teach us, even if we come your way. 

 

 

I think the guides in the forums are the very evidence of spoonfeeding. When people who date back to AFL1 or 2 started, they had NO GUIDES WHATSOEVER.

 

 

 

 

 

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​I get your point, but it's not just new players now. Some of us who joined late last year have been playing for AT LEAST 4-5 months now, and are still being treated badly even if we take all advice and try to practice the tips we are given. 

 

hmmmm i don't quite see that as often. Some of the players considered new like ketiak, sumo, hedwig, wish, dream, omega, bokonon, gilga, fanzone, floaty, cyrus, digitaliron to name a few. These players aren't good, but from what I see they have been showing notable commitment and improvement. When I see them in pugs nobody heckles them.  These are the players that new players should be more like.

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  It's natural selection, veterans had to put up with the same shit you do today. However, they are now here, known by the community because they were able to put up with the same amount of persecution that you did, but instead of just complaining about it, they actually put effort into working towards becoming a better player, so as to avoid the bullshit the previous batch of veterans had forced onto them.

 

  Instead of succumbing to few harsh remarks or nasty criticism, they actually thought about working harder to become better. Sure some people may leave but it's all part of improving the community. Though what the veterans may have done to you may not be condoned, it is all part and parcel for a growing competitive community. It is because of these veterans being harsh on the new players that causes the new players to want to prove the veterans wrong, to want to improve so as to avoid further criticism when playing in pugs or what not.

 

  Your friends may have quit the competitive tf2 or tf2 as a whole, due to the community or whatever other reason, but do you not think the veterans now didn't have friends that quit tf2 as well because of the same reason when they were equally as new as you.

 

  At least you managed to persevere through the harsh remarks the community has put unto you and still have the desire to play in pugs with the same veterans who have scolded you countless times before. If you were sincerely here to improve, it wouldn't bother you how much unreasonable scoldings you would have received, you can't expect to improve without the feedback of other players, be it positive or negative.

 

  Instead of just voicing out your opinions on the forums, maybe it's time for you to spend more time on the game to improve, to work on what others have criticised you on. It's not about acceptance and understanding, it should be about you wanting to work on your own individual skill, so as to save yours and the veterans time when you are pugging.

 

  Bottomline is, don't come to a pug unprepared. You are expected to know at least the basics of pugging before coming to a pug. Veterans don't fault you for having good mechanical skills but shit thinking, they fault you for not understanding the fundamentals such as rollouts. Coming to a pug unprepared is not only a waste of your own time, but also the time of everyone else in the pug.

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did clover just, make a very mature point of view? My goodness clover well done.

 

On a serious note i can only strongly emphasis 1 of clover's point as it is what i believe in as well

 

 Coming to a pug unprepared is not only a waste of your own time, but also the time of everyone else in the pug.

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I want to point out there's players like Teejay in our community. This guy has started a lot later than me, and he's crawled his anus up the ranks into a div 1 team.

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In reply to the statements by Biotics that make sense to me.

 

Like I said, everyone in this community has their own self interests. And like you said, you guys have limited time, and so does everyone else here playing this very game. If you guys are afraid of being taunted, go scrim against other players of your own skill level. No one is asking you to suit them, just dont play with these people and scrim for yourselves. Point taken for your 3rd last to last statement.

How do you have the right to tell us not to play with you guys? We have our own choices about who we want to play with, without segregation of our own 'skill level'. 

 

WAIT ARE U ACTUALLY SAYING U ARE NOT NEW? ARE U SAYING U HAVE EXPERIENCE SUCH THAT U DEEM URSELF AS DECENT PLAYERS? IF SO, WHY ARE VETERANS STILL SAYING MEAN STUFF ABOUT U. I SERIOUSLY DONT THINK THEY SAY THAT FOR FUN EXCUSE ME. And umm, did u honestly, really, just say that bokonon and u are... veterans. Im sorry. I cant. Just cant. rebutt this. My mind is blown.

Haha never said that we were veterans, just said that we deserve the rights NOT to be called names and shiz anymore. We try our very best to play like you guys, and yes, I would say we are at the very least decent. Are you still too stubborn to admit that? 

 

If u know u rollout slowly, there is something called a create server option which allows u to perfect ur rollout without being scolded nor bitched not laughed at by anyone else.

Then there won't be any form of game sense for us if we're practicing on an empty server. Granted, we'll gradually get better, but just because we make a mistake once upon a time and turn out slower than expected doesn't give you ragging rights on us. 

 


Dude, no one in this world is perfect. how can u expect others to use their precious time just to help you. It seems from your argument that u want more people to be kinder and help others. though that obviously is a better world, it isnt reality. No one has the time to do so, neither is everyone kind enough. this is reality, face it. 

Then you just contradicted your own comment. Go figure. I didn't necessarily ask for you guys to be 'kinder and help others', just not to rag on us if we're still working on our strengths. 

 


I think the guides in the forums are the very evidence of spoonfeeding. When people who date back to AFL1 or 2 started, they had NO GUIDES WHATSOEVER.

Do they actually work? The guides give a theoretical base for you to work on, but we still have to figure out a lot by ourselves. Some of it still has to come through experience through gameplay. 

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How do you have the right to tell us not to play with you guys? We have our own choices about who we want to play with, without segregation of our own 'skill level'. 

 

I believe no one in this community has ever told u guys to " not play with us" other than a few exceptions I can think of. Dont we all still keep you in the game, with some occasions of votekicking due to legit reasons (etc. medic crossbowing instead of healing wtf)

 

Haha never said that we were veterans, just said that we deserve the rights NOT to be called names and shiz anymore. We try our very best to play like you guys, and yes, I would say we are at the very least decent. Are you still too stubborn to admit that? 

 

U said we consider u guys a tier below veterans. That means If u dont want us to do that, u want us to consider u as veterans? ur argument earlier is clearly flawed. And I myself am not stuborn to admit that, but U YOURSELF are generalising the VETERAN COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, that they consider u guys as 'cancer' i think some people who are veterans do not think that, spammah himself is 1 such example who helps people like u improve from time to time

 

Then there won't be any form of game sense for us if we're practicing on an empty server. Granted, we'll gradually get better, but just because we make a mistake once upon a time and turn out slower than expected doesn't give you ragging rights on us. 

 

Rolling out on an empty server versus rolling out on a pug server has NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever. what u are saying refers to actual gameplay etc. midfights, but ur earlier arguement states " Many times I've come across players who roll slowly and get yelled at."  Clearly here you are talking about rolling out. 

 

Then you just contradicted your own comment. Go figure. I didn't necessarily ask for you guys to be 'kinder and help others', just not to rag on us if we're still working on our strengths.

 

I did not contradict my comment. I admitted that although it would be better for everyone to help each other, its just not reality. Did I say that everyone in the world is perfect? No, I clearly did not. All I did was picture an unreal world where everyone helps each other. 

 

Do they actually work? The guides give a theoretical base for you to work on, but we still have to figure out a lot by ourselves. Some of it still has to come through experience through gameplay. 

 

So go figure out these experiences that u need through ur own mixes. Why pug, furthermore pugging helps u gain less experience than in a mix if u didnt know.

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In response to clover, 

 

It's natural selection, veterans had to put up with the same shit you do today. However, they are now here, known by the community because they were able to put up with the same amount of persecution that you did, but instead of just complaining about it, they actually put effort into working towards becoming a better player, so as to avoid the bullshit the previous batch of veterans had forced onto them.

Makes sense to me, but did they really have to experience the same things we experience today? The world is completely different from the world it was a few years back, I'm pretty sure it'd be less harsh than it is today. Granted, perseverance plays a part, but there is still a line between bullshit that no one takes seriously and bullying.

 

  Instead of succumbing to few harsh remarks or nasty criticism, they actually thought about working harder to become better. Sure some people may leave but it's all part of improving the community. Though what the veterans may have done to you may not be condoned, it is all part and parcel for a growing competitive community. It is because of these veterans being harsh on the new players that causes the new players to want to prove the veterans wrong, to want to improve so as to avoid further criticism when playing in pugs or what not.

A few harsh remarks? That's a way of putting it generously by a mile. Pressure admittedly pushes us, makes US push ourselves but there is a limit of what we can take.

 

Your friends may have quit the competitive tf2 or tf2 as a whole, due to the community or whatever other reason, but do you not think the veterans now didn't have friends that quit tf2 as well because of the same reason when they were equally as new as you.

The way I hear things, stuff was not as bad as this back then. They most likely didn't have this reason to leave. 

 

At least you managed to persevere through the harsh remarks the community has put unto you and still have the desire to play in pugs with the same veterans who have scolded you countless times before. If you were sincerely here to improve, it wouldn't bother you how much unreasonable scoldings you would have received, you can't expect to improve without the feedback of other players, be it positive or negative.

There's a difference between negative/positive feedback and 'get back onto hightower and learn how to play first' simply for the reason that most of the new players KNOW what to do. We sometimes just have problems with executing it properly, which does in a way help us learn, but not by your ragging that we can learn from. If we are to quietly work on our weaknesses, it is still possible without us feeling too much the weight when we are a 'burden'. 

 

  Instead of just voicing out your opinions on the forums, maybe it's time for you to spend more time on the game to improve, to work on what others have criticised you on. It's not about acceptance and understanding, it should be about you wanting to work on your own individual skill, so as to save yours and the veterans time when you are pugging.

We do practice in our own time, even if you don't notice. Most of us go onto mge to practice aim and dm when we're free, but it doesn't give us the same experience as we would be getting in a real match. Working on our skill does take up some game time at least, during a pug. This way we can learn to work under more pressure than just the basic 20 kills and that's it. We can actually focus on priorities in this way. 

 

  Bottomline is, don't come to a pug unprepared. You are expected to know at least the basics of pugging before coming to a pug. Veterans don't fault you for having good mechanical skills but shit thinking, they fault you for not understanding the fundamentals such as rollouts. Coming to a pug unprepared is not only a waste of your own time, but also the time of everyone else in the pug.

Once again, I repeat that I NEVER said anything about being unprepared when going into a pug. We understand the fundamentals as you say, but sometimes have trouble fully executing them. We already act with full commitment to our picked teams, whatever they are and still get put down. And no one said anything about faulting us for 'good mechanical skills but shit thinking', but faulting us for any simple mistake we make. It's not just decisions that they force onto us, but even the single faltered shot could get you a whole bunch of down putting comments. 

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In reply to the statements by Biotics that make sense to me.
 
Like I said, everyone in this community has their own self interests. And like you said, you guys have limited time, and so does everyone else here playing this very game. If you guys are afraid of being taunted, go scrim against other players of your own skill level. No one is asking you to suit them, just dont play with these people and scrim for yourselves. Point taken for your 3rd last to last statement.
How do you have the right to tell us not to play with you guys? We have our own choices about who we want to play with, without segregation of our own 'skill level'. 
 

 

??????? If you decide to play with these people that scold you so often and put you down, then it's your own fault, don't come to the forum to compose an essay to express your unhappiness with the community.

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I want to point out there's players like Teejay in our community. This guy has started a lot later than me, and he's crawled his anus up the ranks into a div 1 team.

 

Given, he is a really good player, but that doesn't give him rights to comment on our bad plays just because he's good. It'd be fine if his comments actually taught us anything to improve on, but they contain nothing we can use to work on our improvement. 

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??????? If you decide to play with these people that scold you so often and put you down, then it's your own fault, don't come to the forum to compose an essay to express your unhappiness with the community.

 

So now you're saying that we shouldn't play with you guys simply because you're verbally harassing us? I'm merely stating a common issue on the forums, not just expressing my unhappiness. Asiafortress should be a place where EVERYONE can enjoy themselves without being discriminated and shiz. 

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Given, he is a really good player, but that doesn't give him rights to comment on our bad plays just because he's good. It'd be fine if his comments actually taught us anything to improve on, but they contain nothing we can use to work on our improvement. 

 

that's not really true... When he rages, it's pretty clear what you did wrong. When I drop uber, he makes a sad face, so obviously it means dropping = bad. If you miss a key pick and people get mad, it's clear you should improve your aim? And i'm not saying that he's good = can shit talk, i'm saying that he started off as a shit soldier, and now he's become a top player in a time frame much quicker than average.

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In reply to Biotics

 

I believe no one in this community has ever told u guys to " not play with us" other than a few exceptions I can think of. Dont we all still keep you in the game, with some occasions of votekicking due to legit reasons (etc. medic crossbowing instead of healing wtf)

The first sentence is oxymoronic. Some occasions? Quite a few times I alone nearly got vote banned simply because I took a minute's break and not readying up. Plus, if even the veterans treat pugs as pub "lol let's go double sniper", how does trying something different as a lower tier player make us more at fault?
 

U said we consider u guys a tier below veterans. That means If u dont want us to do that, u want us to consider u as veterans? ur argument earlier is clearly flawed. And I myself am not stuborn to admit that, but U YOURSELF are generalising the VETERAN COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, that they consider u guys as 'cancer' i think some people who are veterans do not think that, spammah himself is 1 such example who helps people like u improve from time to time

I already mentioned in my statement that MOST veterans have that sort of belief. Read properly please. I can say that all the admins do their best to help us, but they aren't the only players who can teach us. 
 
Rolling out on an empty server versus rolling out on a pug server has NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever. what u are saying refers to actual gameplay etc. midfights, but ur earlier arguement states " Many times I've come across players who roll slowly and get yelled at."  Clearly here you are talking about rolling out. 
My bad, I was using a specified topic to prove as an example, but it still is valid. In an empty server, we are not rushed in the least. Give or take, real games are always still the best ways to improve. 
 
I did not contradict my comment. I admitted that although it would be better for everyone to help each other, its just not reality. Did I say that everyone in the world is perfect? No, I clearly did not. All I did was picture an unreal world where everyone helps each other. 
Did I mention that everyone in the world was perfect as well? No, clearly I did no. All I did was say that as rare as it could be, there are still people helping one another out, just not enough to counter the haters we have.

 

So go figure out these experiences that u need through ur own mixes. Why pug, furthermore pugging helps u gain less experience than in a mix if u didnt know.

Yet again, you are speaking as if pugs are reserved purely for people who don't need to have these experiences. And yes, I didn't know that. You may not mean the above^, but your words certainly imply as such.

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that's not really true... When he rages, it's pretty clear what you did wrong. When I drop uber, he makes a sad face, so obviously it means dropping = bad. If you miss a key pick and people get mad, it's clear you should improve your aim? And i'm not saying that he's good = can shit talk, i'm saying that he started off as a shit soldier, and now he's become a top player in a time frame much quicker than average.

 

We all as humans know when something we do is wrong or bad. When you drop uber, you mentioned 'you'. This adds onto my point where the newer players aren't given the same amount of respect as the older players are. When I drop uber, I am yelled at. I have decreased the amount of times I drop my a lot since I began, but yet I am still criticised in the rare occasions that I do nowadays. Justice? 

Plus, I will say this for his sake: he IS good, and I respect that. He can play well in a short amount of time? Good for him. But you can't expect all of us to do the same. Also, you mentioned 'much later than I did', which refers to being later than YOU. For all we know, you could have been playing since the game was f2p. Just a flaw I'd like to point out. 

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I believe you're simply victimising yourself. Have you read what we have said, we don't mean to further insult you or anything but you are simply just rejecting everything we said off of face value.

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I believe you're simply victimising yourself. Have you read what we have said, we don't mean to further insult you or anything but you are simply just rejecting everything we said off of face value.

 

I'm not 'victimising' myself, just countering your points I see to be flawed and invalid. Rejecting everything you say is also invalid, as I have changed my point of view in some parts due to your comments. Please take closer notice of my words, thx. 

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We all as humans know when something we do is wrong or bad. When you drop uber, you mentioned 'you'. This adds onto my point where the newer players aren't given the same amount of respect as the older players are. When I drop uber, I am yelled at. I have decreased the amount of times I drop my a lot since I began, but yet I am still criticised in the rare occasions that I do nowadays. Justice? 

Plus, I will say this for his sake: he IS good, and I respect that. He can play well in a short amount of time? Good for him. But you can't expect all of us to do the same. Also, you mentioned 'much later than I did', which refers to being later than YOU. For all we know, you could have been playing since the game was f2p. Just a flaw I'd like to point out. 

 

okay true, but I was playing on a smurf. (HUE)

 

I give teejay as an example of someone to strive to be like, and it's an example of someone who is a noob that was prepared enough to join pugs. This is kind of the point bio is making, new players should be more prepared. I'm just trying to make it easier for you to understand. 

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The first sentence is oxymoronic. Some occasions? Quite a few times I alone nearly got vote banned simply because I took a minute's break and not readying up. Plus, if even the veterans treat pugs as pub "lol let's go double sniper", how does trying something different as a lower tier player make us more at fault?

 

Have u ever seen anyone in a scrim/ official match "take a break to do stuff"? No. Furthermore, u can always standby a drink beside u and drink when ur dead. And to ur 2nd point. I have a good example to rebutt it. U can ask a person named And, an admin of this community, who kicked k1infran,a well known div 1 player, for offclassing sniper on granary.

 

I already mentioned in my statement that MOST veterans have that sort of belief. Read properly please. I can say that all the admins do their best to help us, but they aren't the only players who can teach us. 
 
If u honestly say what u mean, then why do u honestly care about those veterans that have that belief? Approach those that do NOT have that belief for help then? and for the 2nd statement. there are SO MANY other ways to teach yourself other than puggers in this community. U know ETF2L and ESEA? watch their games which are casted. U know ur own demos? Review them.
 
My bad, I was using a specified topic to prove as an example, but it still is valid. In an empty server, we are not rushed in the least. Give or take, real games are always still the best ways to improve. 
 
There is a timer u can always use. U know how badlands best rollout timing is 9:44s approximate for demomen? U can always aim to reach that timing after every round start on your empty server. And its strange u need a pug server to rush yourself. It just means u have no motivation to reach mid as fast as possible.
 
Did I mention that everyone in the world was perfect as well? No, clearly I did no. All I did was say that as rare as it could be, there are still people helping one another out, just not enough to counter the haters we have.
 
Point taken, but that also doesnt mean I have contradcited myself in anyway. Please refrain from accusing me of it without proper explanation.
 
Yet again, you are speaking as if pugs are reserved purely for people who don't need to have these experiences. And yes, I didn't know that. You may not mean the above^, but your words certainly imply as such.
 
I, in no way, said "pugs are reserved purely for people who dont need to have these experiences" I believe no one cares if u go to a pug, absolutely no one is restricting you to do so. if u really want to get what I mean, here it is in 2 sentences. If u find a mix or scrim, u wont have to face these harsh comments. HOWEVER, if u do wish to pug, NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU, but prepare to face harsh comments which are expected, as u cant possible expect others to understand u when u come at your own risk.

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