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iridescentFUZZ

New AsiaFortress unlock whitelists and off-classing guidelines

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honestly i didnt read any of the posts here but there's a simple solution. Just let the team vote ban the guy. Maybe set the number of votes to ban to 4 (majority of team) and only team mates can vote. DONE. close this damn thread now.

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I feel the main difficulty in creating rules governing off-classing is the inherent difficulty (or impossibility) to determine who is whimsically offclassing and who is genuinely attempting to help out the team at a particular point in time. And even if it was possible, there are instances of players who genuinely believe they - or even really do - help out the team best as a full-time Sniper or Heavy, further complicating matters.

 

Honestly from my own limited experience and perspective, and please point out if I'm wrong, the new rules have worked reasonably well. I've seen less rampant and ridiculous offclassing, though as teal points out perhaps at the cost of creativity (?) and freedom. I feel the timing and percentage rules are unintuitive because they are hard (silly, even) to track in-game, but I do think the rule of teammates complaining is logical, although once again hard to keep in check. Does a single team member have the power to effectively block any offclassing whatsoever, even in clearly valid situations?

 

Between restrictive offclassing rules and a place where players can offclass as and when they want, I'd prefer the former. I don't see a suitable middle ground here; Once again please point out if I'm wrong. Allowing for more "creative" usages of offclasses, as appropriate as they may be, inevitably creates exceedingly gray areas for admins to nail down people who offclass to troll because they could always use the "experiment" excuse, which in turn makes it much harder to keep the quality of PUGs up.

 

Personally, I think a sensible next step would be to lightly loosen the unintuitive "timing" and "percentage" rules and see how it (adversely) affects the offclassing situation, before moving on to alter more rules.

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When there were no rules in the past, we've had the best teams - H2H, Vco , AUR by far (UNTIL TODAY). Whilst everyone had their fun, they also had productivity in learning the class and had a great skill level.
 

 

 

H2H was by far the best.

 

When you say work to an extent, please remember, what the goal is; the betterment of the community. Simpler clear cut rules, I don't see why then the need to clutter the guidelines with time sensitive restrictions when the "team mate rule" is simple enough.

 

I appreciate the effort, but I think it is counter productive. I warn against the excessive restrictions for players will take precedents of certain bans and sabotage. Just imo.

 

Yes 1 rule is enough ( I came up with that rule )

 

Giving people a set timeline to offclass only encourages the behavior. In fact though i rarely offclass, i find myself playing spy so much more often these days so that teal and spammah will say " Im watching you" then I get the giggles.

 

You just need 1 rule. Just the 1. The 1 rule that is enforced regularly. Yes you know which one I am talking about. Yup that one.

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Someone wishes to snipe, why does he have to care about the opposing team just because they are losing. He wishes to snipe because he wants to. They can't counter a sniper for 18 mins? Go learn how to. Its not his problem, its theirs.

 

So the priority for a player in that situation(let's say it's a newbie) is to go and learn how to counter a full-time sniper rather than learning how to play successfully against a "normal" cookie-cutter setup? You're trying to say a significant chunk of our PuG playerbase should waste their time focusing on things like that instead of actual gamesense?

 

You told shounic that you checked the logs. Des played for 3 mins in the opposing team - refer below to what our admins have been doing and what you have been doing. I've kindly highlighted it in GREEN.

 

I apologise if I didn't make it clear enough from the start with this thread that opponents are allowed to complain. You may note that the first post has been amended yesterday to reflect these changes. However, both shounic and andrew are aware of the fact that complaints are taken from players on either team.

 

Maybe its about time you reflect your own actions and stop being defensive

 

Again, I'll admit my fault in it being a hastily given ban, but not one that was unwarranted. For more on it being a completely valid ban, see below.

 

7:17 PM - King and Lionheart: im sorry but is fuzz bringing in past bans to justify his current ban?

 

You may not like it, but we're not running a religious institution here. Your sins and past actions are not eternally forgiven. Much like repeat offenders in criminal situations, players who are shown to have bad behaviour will have no leniency shown to them. Keeping this fact in mind, cyrus was banned for a week on the 9th. Forget the fact that he was very amused(and unremorseful) that he missed 4 days of the ban because he wasn't around, he then proceeds to excessively offclass on the very same day he is unbanned.

 

7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: the only ones who complain are the ones who find it hard to kill

7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: is fuzz angry that his head has been taken off many times?

 

 Nice ad hominem there. Because the person who uses voice comms most of the PuGs he plays, telling people to slow the game down for our team's sniper, or to take house/big door/IT to avoid the enemy sniper is angry because his head is taken off too many times.

 

The answer as to why new players are unwilling to give AF PUGS a chance is because of the veteran players and some new players insulting them and are giving them a lot of pressure.

 

Yet again, you're preaching to the choir. And please, don't act like this is the one and only issue plaguing our community, or that nothing is being done about it. Because if you haven't noticed I myself made a very lengthy post in that "Skill level of players" thread detailing exactly the kind of attitude players should have. Also, I don't see myself making any mention of off-classing being the biggest issue we face.

I like how you think something should be done about bad player attitude because according to you, new players can't just "suck it up", but nothing should be done about off-classing because new players can just suck it up. I'd argue that it's far easier to develop a thick skin and ignore insults as a newbie than it is to improve and learn with idiots constantly off-classing against you because they know the second you're picked by the opposing team, they're guaranteed a win no matter what they do. Oh, and please don't try to tell me this doesn't happen.

 

When there were no rules in the past, we've had the best teams - H2H, Vco , AUR by far (UNTIL TODAY). Whilst everyone had their fun, they also had productivity in learning the class and had a great skill level.

 

Not only is this line complete fluff, you end up arguing from tradition, even after my previous post stating that an argument from tradition is no good argument at all.

 

You've stripped off players' creativity and instilled fear of getting banned amongst the players - maybe this is your answer as to why the skill level never grows. Mokee's pug is different from AF's pug, no comparison should be made

Creativity has what to do with anything? They should be applying their "creativity" to tackling situations first via tactics and strategic thinking, not "lol, we can't push, let's offclass heavy/sniper" because that sort of critical thinking is what will help them far more in the long run.

I've seen 12 people(with a wide mix of skill levels) go from an AF PuG directly to a Mokee's/OAG PuG and the results were very, very different. So tell me; if the players playing in the server don't change, why does the game played on AsiaFortress have a higher standard of quality?

 

Who enforces SCRIM and LEAGUE RULES into PUGS? If thats the case, change all PUG servers to SCRIM servers, serious business guys. And in response to the GREEN text that I've highlighted above. It seems to me that if you don't play your class properly you get banned too.

If you look at quality, high level PuGs around the world, you'll see similar results. People running pyro, heavy, spy to mid in high level NA/EU PuGs? Running 100% sniper, heavy, pyro? You run battle medic? You're going to be permanently barred from playing in those PuG groups and probably have some forum threads created about your idiocy as well.

The kind of system you propose would mean running our servers similar to TF2lobby and similar sites. And I'm sure everyone would love that. I'm so sure, that we have a few changes for you guys.

 

How is modelling time spent on average as off classer gna improve the skill level of the community. The subject comparison is at a level where opponents respond promptly to changes in class compositions appropriately.

For part of your answer, see the above post. I completely agree that it may seem illogical in saying that a time restriction on off-classing will improve the skill level of the community, but I see it as a step in that direction.

With a limited amount of time you can spend on off-classing, you're forced to think about when you off-class, which is what most people don't actually do. It will also prevent new players from having their expectations destroyed when they come to PuG after PuG expecting to mainly be fighting a cookie cutter 6v6 lineup, and then find themselves confused with so many more class-variables than they should be facing.

 

As for the bans being handed out for "no reason"; here's the reason I stated before that you seem to have missed. The first ban serves as a platform to introduce a player to the forums and make them aware of the rules and of their mistake, since a lot of players don't bother reading rules or asking about things in the first place.

 

Lastly, I think caldoran's post is probably the best post in the thread, and the most constructive.

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I apologise if I didn't make it clear enough from the start with this thread that opponents are allowed to complain. You may note that the first post has been amended yesterday to reflect these changes. However, both shounic and andrew are aware of the fact that complaints are taken from players on either team.

 

 

On a very serious note I have to interject here. How can you allow an opponent team to complain about offclassing. Every time i get stabbed by a spy ill just lodge a complaint. Doesnt work. Despite the attempts of everyone to ignore my irrefutable logic, this is very very dumb and should be stricken off. With regards to my dear friend caldytron, please see my post where i clearly state I offclass more then usual now.

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Yeah, I'm sure a subset of people would instead offclass more for various reasons (rebellion, contrarian, or etc.) despite the new rules in place. But as I said, from my own limited experience, I have seen less whimsical offclassing from the majority of players in the majority of PUGs I've been in because there are now much clearer criterions and mediums to judge when offclassing has gone too far.

 

However, if unlike me, someone has seen an increase in offclassing in the majority of players in the majority of PUGs instead, it would be interesting to note here.

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On a very serious note I have to interject here. How can you allow an opponent team to complain about offclassing. Every time i get stabbed by a spy ill just lodge a complaint. Doesnt work. Despite the attempts of everyone to ignore my irrefutable logic, this is very very dumb and should be stricken off. With regards to my dear friend caldytron, please see my post where i clearly state I offclass more then usual now.

 

But the thing is you can't complain for getting killed a few times by an offclasser, however you can complain when the offclasser has been doing what he has been, not just for a few lives, but instead, for upwards of 25% of the pug duration. If the opponent team is getting rolled against a horribly stacked team, the stacked team could afford to have an offclass for no particular reason and still win because the offclasser could do absolutely nothing and still rely on his team to carry him. I doubt the stacked team would even bother to complain about the offclasser in their team because no harm is done when he decides to spend his time playing non-cookie cutter classes, the stacked team could still win 5v6. Therefore I believe allowing the opponent team members to complain would be completely valid, provided the complaint actually makes sense.

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You should all remember that while we do accept complaints from 'enemy teams', it doesn't necessarily mean that it will pass our bullshit filter and we will ban. We review every ban carefully.

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I've added the wolo dood a few days ago alr to give some tips and advice regarding medic. Pls be nice to him he's trying to learn ^^

 

 

ps: I'm a pretty terrible heavy now feel free to ask me to stop if you see me getting raped :-)

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IMO (yes, its my opinion. I was not influenced by anyone or anything)

 

All we need is rule #1 because almost nothing else is more effective than the team telling you to stop offclassing if you're doing badly as one of the offclass.

 

If they dont mind you sniping or going spy or whatever for god knows how long, then you could ( Im not impying that  you should be offclassing 24/7. Common sense please.) This leads to Rule #2 being redundant should your team allows you to offclass and dont mind. (or they not balls to tell you. I hope not)

 

Rule #3 pretty much boils down to how well the offclass is helping the team at mid. If i run sniper to badlands mid and get 4 headshots and win mid, next mid maybe i'll do the same. If i get 4 headshots but we lose mid or i didnt kill anything and we lose mid, then I'll not offclass to mid next round. If you're not doing shit as offclass at mids and your team is suffering because of it, then they deserve the right to tell you to play your assigned cookie cutter class. Again rule #1 appears here too.

 

Again this is just my opinion. Dont kill me for expressing my views :D

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(IMO) i think the easiest solution would be

 

player 1 offclass sniper

player 1(team) get trashed 

player 1(team) say it doesnt work

player 1 still want to offclass

player 1 get  a warning

player 1 refused to switch up n being ignorant

player 1 get ban :D

 

(If offclassing its not working, switch to ur main) simple.

This solution still applies that u can offclass but if ur not helping the team by offclassing, pls do switch back

If you do help the team, i dont see why u should stay unless the enemy team figures out to shut u down

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