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iridescentFUZZ

New AsiaFortress unlock whitelists and off-classing guidelines

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Whitelist changelog:

Disabled pyrovision
Disabled noise-making miscs
Disabled explosion on death miscs
Added Shred Alert, The Director's Vision, The Schadenfreude
Added Winger, Black Box, Overdose

These changes will be implemented as soon as nata uploads the new config.

Along with the unlocks, we'll be introducing some guidelines for off-classing or the reporting of excessive off-classers.

Off-classing guidelines(these only apply to 5CP maps):

1. Teammate rule
If one or more teammates have asked you to stop offclassing and you don't stop on the next death/round(whichever comes first), you are likely to be banned. Teammates are encouraged to post in all-chat(in addition to voice if needed) so logs can be checked later.

2. Time rule
A maximum of 33% of a match may be spent off-classing as any combination of classes. In a full 30-minute match this means you may spend a maximum of 10 minutes off-classing.

3. Off-classing to mid
Off-classing to mid is sometimes a viable strategy. Classes that are viable to mid are sniper and heavy, and only gullywash, snakewater and process are acceptable for off-classing to mid. The more rounds you spend off-classing to mid as heavy and sniper on gullywash, snakewater and process, the more likely you are to get banned. Off-classing to mid as any other class, or attempting to off-class heavy/sniper to mid on maps other than the two mentioned earlier can result in a ban.

If you're guilty by one of the above rules, you're likely to be banned. If you're guilty by a combination of two or more, you're pretty much definitely getting banned.

Other factors that may influence enforcement of the three rules above are as follows:

Team balance: Being on a stacked team, or on a team that's getting rolled 4-0 does not give you a valid excuse to off-class. If one team is stacked, you're more likely to be banned for only a single one of the above rules.

Location of off-class on map and class used: Off-classing is most viable when pushing into or defending a last point. On the other hand, off-classing to/from other points on the map is rarely advisable as any class other than sniper. If you're pushing to 2nd, mid or enemy 2nd with a pyro or engineer you're in trouble. Remember the time rule? Spending 25% of a game on heavy may not warrant a ban, but spending 20-25% of a game running pyro, engineer or spy will.

Past offenses: Any past offenses, including excessive off-classing, leaving PuGs without a sub, dodging medic, ignoring admins, bug-exploiting and misbehaviour under alt accounts will mean you receive little or no leniency in matters of off-classing.

Notes for reporting off-classing:
If you feel any of the above rules have been broken, you may report a case of excessive off-classing in the newly created "Off-classing complaint submission/protest" thread under "Official Servers".

 

A few examples of reasonable reports:

  1. You're on a team that is losing 3-0 and your teammate is running sniper excessively, even after you've told him/her to stop.
  2. You're on a team that is losing 1-5 and an opponent is running 50%+ sniper/heavy all around the map.
  3. Scores are 3-3, but your teammate has been running pyro to mid for the last 4 mids, then running engy on last and refusing to push when on advantageous opportunities.

A few examples of unreasonable reports:

  1. Your team is losing 0-3 and the end score is 2-4. You make a complaint against an opponent or teammate who has spent 35% of their time on off-class.
  2. Your team loses 4-1 and you complain about an opponent or teammate who ran sniper to mid on one, maybe two rounds on a map such as gullywash, snakewater or process.
  3. Your team is losing 3-4, and your heavy pushes from last to second once, causing your team to lose on a final score of 3-5.

 

DO NOT report cases of off-classing directly to admins.
Your report will only be looked into if offending player name, date, time, map and server are mentioned. Alternatively, you may provide a link to the log along with offending player name.

Also note that complaint submission is taken very seriously. If you do not provide sufficient proof, or your complaint is found to be unreasonable as per the examples above, you will receive an infraction. Three infractions lead to a 3-day ban.

 

Last, but not least; we appreciate and request criticism and feedback on our rules. If you have any clarifications on the rules, feel free to ask here.

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makes me envision a 8min timer by the side of the screen that starts to count down every time you off class and stops when you switch back~ xD

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I'll type this here because no one replied me on the admin forums.

 

Please reconsider your following guidelines for
#2 : because its quite ridiculous (no one is going to count and its not effective)
#3 : if there is a need to be thorough, include an entire list of possible sniping/heavy to mid - warmfront coldfront obscure badlands snakewater ETC. Also, I disagree that the only maps viable for offclassing (SNIPER/HEAVY) are gullywash/process. C'mon you are a veteran, I don't have to say anything more.

*do not just focus on snipers/heavy. what abt other classes? It seems to me that you are just frustrated with certain players. Like I said, if there is a need to be, IF, be as precise as possible.


*#1 was decided by the community not by our admins. If the community has spoken, we should support it not protect it (or spoonfeed) by adding more redundant "guidelines". It was your fault in the first place for failing to note what they've chosen. As a result, you ban without giving warnings, making players confused as to what the rule really is, causing this whole hooha abt not being black and white. If you make players apologise for offclassing then please apologise for being unprofessional. All of the "GUIDELINES" above seem to clash with each other. 


*Played process last night

  • Opposing team ran a heavy for the entire 30 mins - it worked REALLY WELL for them
  • My team used their brains to counter the heavy by having sud run sniper, didn't work sometimes, its OK, my roamer went scout, Sud continued to try sniping the heavy down. 2 scouts, 1 sniper, 1 pocket,  1 demo 1 med. IT WORKED.
  • And we played with the newer players who were happy to take on the challenge.

Many other instances where offclassing worked but I don't have to list it all down.
 

tl;dr : remove #2 and #3 and enforce on #1. When the community is given a chance to speak up, let them do so. Offclassing has and will always lie in the grey areas of TF2. Whatever you are trying to do to minimize it is ineffective. INEFFECTIVE. INEFFECTIVE. 
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this looks like a sabo thread. i would like to complain about sud. he always offclass sniper the whole map then we lose. ban him! then gene always spy more than 8min per map.  cuteman also always play scout when he is demo main. offclass! BAN!

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*#1 was decided by the community not by our admins. If the community has spoken, we should support it not protect it (or spoonfeed) by adding more redundant "guidelines". It was your fault in the first place for failing to note what they've chosen. As a result, you ban without giving warnings, making players confused as to what the rule really is, causing this whole hooha abt not being black and white.

Whether the teammate rule was suggested by the community or was an idea that sprung from an admin or the admin circle, I can't remember. Nobody has "failed to note what the community has chosen". Their warning is their first ban, and as has been shown from a recent incident, that warning is completely ignored much like admin warnings in game. They can't be bothered to read the rules, and we can't have an admin present for every single PuG in every single server, in every region.

The fact of the matter is this; even after the teammate rule was implemented and enforced(albeit inconsistently), there continued to be complaints, debates and forum threads clamouring for more definitive, less abstract off-classing guidelines from the community. Even when the banning was completely lenient after nata spoke about abolishing the off-class rule, and pretty much no one was being banned for off-classing except on teammate complaint, we were having debate threads and complaints about the quality of games because; excessive off-classing.

 

These guidelines are simply a definitive remedy to those complaints from the community. The aim of this set of rules is to model off-class usage after the very best international TF2 has to offer; to do so we simply looked at the average amount of time players spent off-classing on teams such as HRG, immunity, Epsilon, broder and infused, in addition to the other premiership teams at i49.

Even the most prolific off-classers(broder.jukebox and iM.sheep) spent on average, 25% of their time playing an off-class, even with viaduct taken into consideration. Out of all the scouts and roamers on the teams at i49, out of approximately 20 maps played by iM and broder, only jukebox and sheep were found to have played 4-5 maps with an excess of 10 minutes of off-classing. If a specific player, unhappy about being banned for off-classing can make the case that they have the skill, gamesense and team co-ordination(in a PuG of all places) that sheep and jukebox had/have, then sure, we'll unban you.

 

#2 : because its quite ridiculous (no one is going to count and its not effective)

And you're basing its effectiveness on what, a week or two of the rule being implemented? I don't see how it's ridiculous, ineffective or how it's difficult to count. If someone has spent more than 25-30% of a map's time off-classing(via checking logs), we have a reason to ban them, but aren't required to.

If they have done something like this in addition to a complaint from a teammate/opponent, or are doing so on a 4-0 roll, or maybe running a stupid off-class to mid, we ban them.

 

*Played process last night

  • Opposing team ran a heavy for the entire 30 mins - it worked REALLY WELL for them
  • My team used their brains to counter the heavy by having sud run sniper, didn't work sometimes, its OK, my roamer went scout, Sud continued to try sniping the heavy down. 2 scouts, 1 sniper, 1 pocket, 1 demo 1 med. IT WORKED.
  • And we played with the newer players who were happy to take on the challenge.

I think this kind of a scenario is irrelevant. And I say that while completely ignoring the fact that "using their brains to counter the heavy by having sud run sniper" is an oxymoron. The team didn't counter the heavy, a single player who is really good at off-classing did. The "100% heavy working really well" happened simply because the other team could not counter it without having an experienced, skilled sniper. Regardless, we're not looking to ban someone the second we see a log where they've played more than 30% off-class.

What needs to be understood very clearly is that off-classing more than 33% on 5CP maps is not the norm, and very many players are aware of this, considering the exposure to high level foreign leagues; therefore, players(whether they are on the off-classing team or not) who feel "cheated" out of a proper game should have some way of reporting the player(s) who they feel ruined the game for them. The guidelines are there for the admin to decide(after checking logs) if that player's complaint was valid or not.

 

If someone runs 100% heavy in a PuG, and everyone has a good time, we don't care. If there are no admins in server(or the admins are fine with the off-classing), the score is close, teams are not stacked, and the player is not just running the off-class because they're rolling/getting rolled when someone complains, we have the option of letting the offense slide.

 

You may note, however, that the most recent incident wasn't a case of close score-line, and the offender was running the off-class simply because he could afford to run 18 minutes of sniper and still win 4-1. There's also the fact that he was unbanned for a 1 week off-classing ban(valid complaint while I was in server myself) that very day, and was completely unremorseful about it when he found out his ban was effectively only 3 days as the earlier portion of it was while he was on vacation or something.

 

Offclassing has always seemed to lie in the grey areas of TF2. Whatever you are trying to do to minimize it is ineffective. INEFFECTIVE. INEFFECTIVE.

 

I think the red text is a more appropriate way of putting it. If off-classing is a grey area, the statistics would show far more arbitrary numbers. If this truly is a grey area, you would see the logs from i49 showing scouts and roamers with off-class percentages wildly varying from 5% to 60% if not more.

What the numbers actually show is that out of 16 flank players:

12 spent 5-10% of their time off-classing

2 spent 10-20% of their time off-classing

2 spent 20-30% of their time off-classing

 

Now, to make my final point; all of these guidelines tie into my earlier post about player retention and how people see our competitive scene.

Our goals are the growth of the Asian competitive scene in terms of player quantity and player quality. How do we achieve those goals when potential new players don't want to give AsiaFortress PuGs a chance because of many issues; one being excessive off-classing? Or when relatively new players, such as the one mentioned in the above incident either become rampant off-classers themselves, or leave because there are no rules in place to maintain a certain level of quality in games? Just because there were no rules "in the good old days", everybody could do what they like and have fun doesn't mean we shouldn't expect a certain level of quality or strive towards it. An argument from tradition is no good argument at all. Do we want every AF PuG to emulate a Mokee's PuG with people off-classing on a whim?

At the end of the day, the actions of certain players are not conducive to the growth of the Asian competitive scene, and if the general enjoyment(because there really is nothing else at stake for them) of those players must be sacrificed for the good of the community, then so be it.

 

With all of the events of the past few days in mind, we've seen the need to amend/update a few things.

The report thread will now be used as a complaint submission and protest thread. Reports made directly to admins will no longer be accepted. If you want to complain about someone off-classing, go through the procedure detailed in the report thread. Once a complaint with sufficient evidence(logs, demo with ticks/time if needed) is made, the offender has 48 hours to protest the complaint, and must provide sufficient evidence to do so.

Reports against people made without sufficient reason or proof will receive an infraction. Three infractions will lead to a 3 day ban. The time limit rule will be increased to a maximum of 33% per map. Examples of reasonable and unreasonable reports have been added.

We welcome criticism and requests for clarifications on the guidelines. If we see the need for amendments of any guidelines, we will do so.

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So my dear admin, if you are going to base your bans on the context given, with reference to the so called recent incident : 

 

This was what happened 

Cyrus got banned for offclassing more than 8mins, des and him were trolling each other and so des reported to fuzz. 

 

According to fuzz : You may note, however, that the most recent incident wasn't a case of close score-line, and the offender was running the off-class simply because he could afford to run 18 minutes of sniper and still win 4-1. There's also the fact that he was unbanned for a 1 week off-classing ban(valid complaint while I was in server myself) that very day, and was completely unremorseful about it when he found out his ban was effectively only 3 days as the earlier portion of it was while he was on vacation or something.

 

  1. Someone wishes to snipe, why does he have to care about the opposing team just because they are losing. He wishes to snipe because he wants to. They can't counter a sniper for 18 mins? Go learn how to. Its not his problem, its theirs. 
  2. You told shounic that you checked the logs. Des played for 3 mins in the opposing team - refer below to what our admins have been doing and what you have been doing. I've kindly highlighted it in GREEN. 
  3. Maybe its about time you reflect your own actions and stop being defensive

 

6:55 PM - esp. shounic: hi
6:55 PM - King and Lionheart: hi im back
6:55 PM - esp. shounic: so fuzz's story was different
6:55 PM - King and Lionheart: wassup
6:56 PM - esp. shounic: "Ok, first off, I checked the logs and saw that 1, destiny had played a few minutes in the match so his complaint was valid. 2, I also happened to see someone say something in the chat logs about cyrus off classing more than 8 minutes"
6:56 PM - esp. shounic: "Lastly, he was unbanned JUST the day before and was competition unremorseful"
6:56 PM - esp. shounic: "He had only actually received 3 ban days instead of a week for the previous ban where someone did complain and when he found out that it was 3 days effectively he was very amused
Because he was on vacation during the ban"
6:56 PM - King and Lionheart: give me the logs of the match
6:56 PM - King and Lionheart: *pug
"12:13 AM - Destiny™: yyyy u ignore meee
12:13 AM - cyrus.: i guilty :(
12:13 AM - Destiny™: :o
12:13 AM - Destiny™: kk i go ask fuzz
12:13 AM - cyrus.: :o
12:14 AM - cyrus.: okie ^_Z^
12:14 AM - cyrus.: ^_^
12:28 AM - cyrus.: mercy plz :("
6:56 PM - King and Lionheart: i think the chatlogs
6:56 PM - King and Lionheart: are good enough
6:57 PM - King and Lionheart: to show how they are trolling each other
7:09 PM - King and Lionheart: http://logs.tf/145004
7:10 PM - King and Lionheart: again des is from opposing team
7:10 PM - King and Lionheart: i think he only subbed for like a min
7:10 PM - King and Lionheart: cause his damage is 1.3k
7:10 PM - King and Lionheart: also he went sniper
7:10 PM - King and Lionheart: if u look at chat
7:10 PM - King and Lionheart: xX720M1GN0SC0P3Xx : offclass for more than 8 minutes!!!
7:10 PM - King and Lionheart: this guy
7:10 PM - King and Lionheart: is Chongy'
7:11 PM - King and Lionheart: who types v trollish
7:11 PM - King and Lionheart: is a troll but a nice guy
7:11 PM - King and Lionheart: aka do not take his words srsly
7:11 PM - King and Lionheart: and lets say fuzz is talking abt this guy who made the comment
7:11 PM - King and Lionheart: he did 3.8k dmg
7:11 PM - King and Lionheart: and he went spy
7:11 PM - King and Lionheart: and he is a solly
7:12 PM - King and Lionheart: cyrus on the other hand did 8.4k
7:12 PM - King and Lionheart: and the guy making noise only has 11 kills
7:12 PM - King and Lionheart: cyrus has 34
7:13 PM - esp. shounic: i waiting fuzz reply. he atm in the group chat just say why he would not allow off-class
7:13 PM - esp. shounic: i tell him
7:13 PM - King and Lionheart: definitely a challenge to blu team aye
7:13 PM - esp. shounic: be relevant
7:14 PM - esp. shounic: ok
7:14 PM - esp. shounic: here it is
7:14 PM - esp. shounic: "Ok, joke agreed upon by everyone is fair enough, but destiny DID play 3-4 minutes in that game, on top of which cyrus was banned just the day before
Unbanned*
And like I said, he was completely unremorseful"
7:14 PM - esp. shounic: rebut?
7:14 PM - King and Lionheart: how is he completely unremorseful when NO ONE told him that he COULD NOT offclass?
7:14 PM - King and Lionheart: according to fuzz's guidelines of #1
7:14 PM - King and Lionheart: NO ONE made any noise
7:15 PM - King and Lionheart: according to you me and And : only teammates are allowed to make noise < this is what MOST of the admins are doing
7:15 PM - King and Lionheart: according to fuzz : ANYONE can report < this is what only you are doing 
7:15 PM - King and Lionheart: so here it is WHERE IS THE CONSISTENCY
7:15 PM - esp. shounic: well not only team mates, technically we also consider if other team complain but ok
7:15 PM - King and Lionheart: why should the other team be allowed to complain?
7:15 PM - King and Lionheart: lol
7:16 PM - esp. shounic: he argues that
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: the only ones who complain are the ones who find it hard to kill
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: is fuzz angry that his head has been taken off many times?
7:16 PM - esp. shounic: it should be considered but he won't accept if it's only enemy team
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: precisely
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: and where is des
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: he is IN....?
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: the OPPOSING team
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: he won't accept if it's only enemy team
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: ^ contradiction
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: only
7:16 PM - King and Lionheart: im looking at chat logs here
7:17 PM - esp. shounic: k wait
7:17 PM - King and Lionheart: no one from red team made any comment on "stop offclassing cyrus"
7:17 PM - esp. shounic: slow down
7:17 PM - esp. shounic: here's his previous reply
7:17 PM - esp. shounic: "And like I said, he was completely unremorseful
He asked "Till when am I banned?" I replied "16th"
He was like "lol, i was out till 13th""
7:17 PM - King and Lionheart: im sorry but is fuzz bringing in past bans to justify his current ban?
7:17 PM - esp. shounic: nata suggesting public fist fight ah
7:17 PM - King and Lionheart: does it make any sense ?
7:19 PM - esp. shounic: nata also inputting >_>
7:19 PM - King and Lionheart: tell nata go back to his coding
7:19 PM - King and Lionheart: if he says he washes his hands off the community
7:19 PM - King and Lionheart: then stick by it
7:19 PM - King and Lionheart: his dodo head
7:20 PM - King and Lionheart: tekan his leg
7:21 PM - esp. shounic: they saying that des should be responsible for joke reports
7:21 PM - King and Lionheart: lol
7:21 PM - King and Lionheart: why are they defending themselves
7:21 PM - King and Lionheart: they made the mistake
7:21 PM - King and Lionheart: an action has already been carried out by fuzz
7:21 PM - King and Lionheart: review the rules and their own actions that what i suggest
7:21 PM - King and Lionheart: what say u shounic
7:22 PM - King and Lionheart: u think that admins should just be like "oh okay lets just take it out on the guy who made the report etcetc" and not reflect?
7:23 PM - esp. shounic: oaky
7:23 PM - esp. shounic: here's the settlement i asked them to go for
7:23 PM - esp. shounic: and they accept
7:23 PM - esp. shounic: If destiny wants cyrus banned for real, he must go report in thread
7:23 PM - esp. shounic: otherwise cyrus is okay
7:23 PM - esp. shounic: but they say this will be a mark on both their records
7:24 PM - esp. shounic: fuzz also say
7:24 PM - esp. shounic: amending rules
 
Is your/"very best international TF2" 8 mins ban rule good? Write a report on the forums when actions have already been taken? Banning based on your so-called "reading the logs but failing to note who the players are". Are you sure you know the community and are doing whats best for them? 
 
The "100% heavy working really well" happened simply because the other team could not counter it without having an experienced, skilled sniper. < exaggeration. Also maybe you forgot in my case scenario, Sud's sniping did not work fully. 
 
-------------------------------------
 
Fuzz - How do we achieve those goals when potential new players don't want to give AsiaFortress PuGs a chance because of many issues; one being excessive off-classing? Or when relatively new players, such as the one mentioned in the above incident either become rampant off-classers themselves, or leave because there are no rules in place to maintain a certain level of quality in games? Just because there were no rules "in the good old days", everybody could do what they like and have fun doesn't mean we shouldn't expect a certain level of quality or strive towards it. An argument from tradition is no good argument at all. Do we want every AF PuG to emulate a Mokee's PuG with people off-classing on a whim?
 
The answer as to why new players are unwilling to give AF PUGS a chance is because of the veteran players and some new players insulting them and are giving them a lot of pressure. For example : Cuteman, TEEHEE, wishwish, just to name a few. Guy named Wolo just joined a few days ago, mostly everyone in the game except for qwe and I, were saying how badly he sucked and how he is going to bring the team down. The issue with new players being reluctant to join is not over offclassing but the ATTITUDE of our current players. If you've played often you'd know so do not simply add in offclassing to justify it as an obstacle that hinders the growth of AF. Educate rather than restrain.
 
When there were no rules in the past, we've had the best teams - H2H, Vco , AUR by far (UNTIL TODAY). Whilst everyone had their fun, they also had productivity in learning the class and had a great skill level.
 
KungfuPanda : best 30mins spy player in PUGS (you don't know him you aren't in the community yet) - killed everything and sapped a sentry until a player's computer crashed.
Bigfoot : accurate pyro with no fear, was able to push the opposing team back to their mid from his team's last, reflecting rockets and killing those who'd dare shoot at him.
 
Newer gen :
Qjyap : strong and v fat heavy, could hold mid and aid in team pushes for a long time in most maps, most memorable map was snakewater when I was against him.
Kiwi, t2, shrlck : their sniping, have you seen it? Everyone is dodging like mad when they see them.
 
You've stripped off players' creativity and instilled fear of getting banned amongst the players - maybe this is your answer as to why the skill level never grows. Mokee's pug is different from AF's pug, no comparison should be made - btw, I enjoyed mokee's pug even though its bad sometimes because their admins know what fun is (making Ry4n's head really huge so that its easy to snipe him yeeeee that was funny).

 

----------------------------------------

 

Fuzz -  The time limit rule will be increased to a maximum of 33% per map

 

We are not going to bother on the retarded time limit rule. 

 

----------------------------------------

 
Lastly, why should we model our community after another? Again, the comparisons you've made are way too far fetched to even be made. Our community is small, if population is small, growth is small, learning curve is gentler. Their community have THOUSANDS of players (maybe more than that), MANY teams (whilst we only have 5 atm) and hence a greater potential for professional players. On a personal level, yeah they're our role models, go improve and be as good as them. On a community level, you can't do that. Your comparisons in the first 2 paragraphs are based on scrims and teams rather than pugs.
 
I'll end it with a quote from our very own skillful crossbow medic with regards to i49 
 
10:35 AM - Destiny™: u sniff their toes also cant sniff
 

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Lol at comparing to invite level players. How is modelling time spent on average as off classer gna improve the skill level of the community. The subject comparison is at a level where opponents respond promptly to changes in class compositions appropriately. Successful off classing promotes further team effort and coordination, the guidelines should only be imposed on persistent unsuccessful ones and it's only logical that team mates have the sole right to protest.

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I don't want to take away from either fuzz or teal's arguments, but to be fair - this was our attempt at tackling the issue of excessive off-classing that has been extensively debated about in that other thread.

 

So.... then what does the community want? In that other thread I've suggested we settle the issue by taking it case by case, and that's what we're doing now. Every ban is done at the discretion at the admin and mistakes will happen, we're sorry. The reason Fuzz is taking stats from i49 is because there was a cry for simple clear cut rules, and to be fair it does work to an extent. 

 

We recognize there are other problems that plague PUGs, but off-classing was the issue the community has shown the most dislike for. If you think there needs to be more moderation of people's behavior then speak up. We as admins do not decide for the community. These forums are for the community to tell us what they want. You know most of us admins check the forums regularly and we handle ban / unban requests to the best of our abilities. 

 

Make suggestions to us, talk to us!

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When you say work to an extent, please remember, what the goal is; the betterment of the community. Simpler clear cut rules, I don't see why then the need to clutter the guidelines with time sensitive restrictions when the "team mate rule" is simple enough.

 

I appreciate the effort, but I think it is counter productive. I warn against the excessive restrictions for players will take precedents of certain bans and sabotage. Just imo.

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I don't want to take away from either fuzz or teal's arguments, but to be fair - this was our attempt at tackling the issue of excessive off-classing that has been extensively debated about in that other thread.

 

So.... then what does the community want? In that other thread I've suggested we settle the issue by taking it case by case, and that's what we're doing now. Every ban is done at the discretion at the admin and mistakes will happen, we're sorry. The reason Fuzz is taking stats from i49 is because there was a cry for simple clear cut rules, and to be fair it does work to an extent. 

 

We recognize there are other problems that plague PUGs, but off-classing was the issue the community has shown the most dislike for. If you think there needs to be more moderation of people's behavior then speak up. We as admins do not decide for the community. These forums are for the community to tell us what they want. You know most of us admins check the forums regularly and we handle ban / unban requests to the best of our abilities. 

 

Make suggestions to us, talk to us!

 

Give me an example of when it worked. So what if they voiced out their unhappiness over offclassing? Does that mean that the issue is the MOST disliked issue? Or is it because its more difficult to talk about the certain attitudes of players? 

You guys have banned players and reduced their bans to 3 days or more (a week etc). Can I ask if these bans can be justified? 

 

'gilga', on 02 Nov 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:snapback.png

Name : gilga

Steam id : reikisubagyo

why you got banned : leaving a pug before there is a replace

why should be unbanned : i have to go really urgent that time, theres no spec. i should not have played a pug when i know i was going to go. for that i would like to apologize, i wont do that mistake again.

natapon : ban reduced to a week, spend this one week reading guides and improving your game. 

 

gilga in reply to nata : thanks nata, and btw Reason leave without getting a sub as medic 

i wasnt a medic that time, i was a soldier:/ 

 

name: Anonymous

LINK to your steam id: STEAM_0:1:57816250

why you got banned: I got banned for saying ''no u'' to natapon when he said i was shit at roamer

why you should be unbanned: I was pushing responsibility on the medic that it was his fault that he died and not mine, when it should have been my fault. Protato ballz is an actual friend of mine in real life and i meant no offense to him. I know i should not have rebutted at Natapon, as it was very disrespectful and i should accept all criticism, especially from an experienced player like him who is a veteran at TF2. I apologize for my mistakes and i will not repeat it again. 

 

name: protato

steamid: potatoballz

why you got banned: I got banned for going battlemedic in the last minute of the game and opposing natapon's banning of anonymous, who was in the same server 

why you should be unbanned: i was being stupid and was trying to rush the demo and failed. i really should have just stayed with the pocket and demo to heal them. i am really sorry for being stupid and i wont repeat this mistake again 

 

name: ZELR4R

LINK to your steam id: 76561198073855904

why you got banned: I was playing as a subbed-in demo. I went afk for a while as it was really urgent, and I forgot to type in "!sub". At that time, there were lots of spectators that could have replaced me while I was afk, and it is my own fault I got banned.

why you should be unbanned: I feel remorseful and I have learnt my lesson. I am really sorry that I disrupted the pug, and I do wish to play competitively again. 

 

name: SirLiony

LINK to your steam id: http://steamcommunity.com/id/SirLiony/

why you got banned: Chatting too much.

why you should be unbanned: Yes I do know that we are not allowed to spam, but I was enjoying myself too much until I forget the rules. I promise I won't spam a lot again. Ever since I firgure out why I was ban, I don't chat that much anymore. And without PUG, I felled very boring in TF2. I could not find any better PUG, because all others were empty and when it is not, it is super cancerous.

 

'Tr4in', on 08 Dec 2013 - 3:43 PM, said:snapback.png

name: Tr4in

steam id: 76561198078677044

why i got banned: battle medic

why i should be unbanned: So I was in mumble with the of whole of my team besides sq and seeing as we would be able to clearly win the game from the start (end game score 5-0) i decided to play around a bit, and use my needles/ubersaw more often. sq found this a annoying but gave no notice for me to stop. Through his annoyance he ended up reporting me mid game. I still gave quite a lot of heals, but i understand why i have been banned. I am sorry for my actions, and will be more considerate of other players.

Fuzz : Doesn't matter if your team is getting winning or losing 5-0; we expect players to fullfil their class roles in a serious fashion. Additionally, you've been banned for off-classing(among other things) a couple of times prior to this, so you're expected to be genuinely attempting to improve your image and reputation as a player. Going battle medic and off-classing to spy as medic shows a complete lack of respect for your opponents and disregard for our PuG rules.

 

Your ban has been reduced to two weeks. Future bans for you will get exponentially longer, so maybe try avoid getting banned in the first place. 

 

http://steamcommunit...skrubbendoktor/

Steam ID: skrubbendoktor

Why I got banned: I did not answer an admin (natapon) question.

Why I should get unbanned: I promise to be more responsible, attentive and extremely polite and show greater amounts of respect towards admins and other players.

 

 

Hey, would like to get this off me after finding out about my perma-ban delivered by admin Shounic on the 15th of December due to my leaving of a pug server without finding proper replacement. I would however like to explain on behalf of my uncalled leaving and would like to see this ban be removed if my reasons are seen to be valid. 

 

Name: DaLoneHuggable

Link: http://steamcommunit...dalonehuggable/

Steam ID: STEAM_0:0:64794403

Why I got Banned: Leaving before a sub

Why I should be Unbanned: 

- No specs in server (waited for around 10 minutes before disconnecting)

- Teammates were informed of urgency before leaving, thus affording a realisation of my coming absence

- This is however a practice I have seen done by many, and I however got perma-banned for doing it once? Justice please?

Link to my Ban Protest: Not really sure what this is, enlightenment? 

Would appreciate if this could get sorted out as soon as possible. Thx again. 

 

The list goes on. 

 

"mistakes will happen, we're sorry" - doesn't seem like it to me when you extend their bans by 3 weeks/1 week/3 days.

 

"The reason Fuzz is taking stats from i49 is because there was a cry for simple clear cut rules, and to be fair it does work to an extent. "When has it worked and when has it backfired? You know more than this. Who has actually counted 8 MINS? Who enforces SCRIM and LEAGUE RULES into PUGS? If thats the case, change all PUG servers to SCRIM servers, serious business guys. And in response to the GREEN text that I've highlighted above. It seems to me that if you don't play your class properly you get banned too. My question is now this : what do YOU as an admin, want from them? 

The ban appeals seem to cry out : 

  • Treat admins like a god
  • PUG is SCRIM
  • No Specs? Okay I gotta apologize to the admins for having no specs in the server to sub me

     

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i want admin re-instated. i will solve all your problems. GIVE IT TO ME NATA.

 

you should give it to me if 10 people like this post!

 

listen to the people. you dicktator!!

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I am not speaking for the entire Admin Team, but whether or not the bans were justified or not, Sorry. As I have pointed out before, we ban at our own discretion, but we only do what we feel is appropriate. But the past is the past and we can only improve our policies in the future.

 

About previous bans by Natapon, I cannot be responsible for his decisions. He felt it was appropriate, and he took action. Natapon has been more careful about banning people as of late, so I assume he has learnt his lessons. Although I have to say sorry to the those who have been unfairly banned in the past. 

 

About my ban on Huggable - I have agreed to reduce his ban to one day when he appeals. The reason I don't completely unban him is because he is still responsible for his mistake. You are responsible for checking the time before you join a pug, or at least ensuring you can find a sub before you leave the pug. There are of course things we consider such as 'I wasn't made aware of the time I had to leave previously' or 'my whatever crashed' which is out of your control. We enforce these rules to hopefully have a better pug environment for everyone. I agree that it was unfortunate there was no specs, but he has mentioned it was his brother's wedding. Should you not be clear on what time that is? He has to be responsible for his own actions, and as a result, punishment. 

 

The guidelines were made by Fuzz were meant to be a method of judgement for the Admins. We thought that it would be in the best interest of the community if we made it public, so people could understand some of our decisions. It has personally been useful for checking however long someone has been playing a certain class when someone mentions it. I only do this to get a general idea of the situation. We don't count the time either. No, we don't consider PUGs scrims, but this is what we've interpreted from the debates on the forums. We can only conveniently take input from the forums, and whether it is the community being vague or the admins misinterpreting a message, we still only have the goal of improving AsiaFortress for everyone. 

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i want admin re-instated. i will solve all your problems. GIVE IT TO ME NATA.

 

you should give it to me if 10 people like this post!

 

listen to the people. you dicktator!!

 

I LIKED IT but it doesn't show

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