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Bob

rolling to spec in pugs

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Allow me to clarify.

 

Differently skilled players = different mindsets and varying game sense, and also different levels of dm.

 

That is how it affects teamplay.

Even in a team, communications are VITAL to executing intricate strategies and calling out focus fire.

In a PUG, with these different mindsets and varying game sense, communications are even MORE important for ANY form of proper teamplay.

Also, the average level of our players in PUGS are far from the average level of players in Korean/Taiwanese/Japanese/HK mix teams.

You have proven ONCE AGAIN that I haven't inferred wrongly, that you still believe pugs is not a place for teamplay to happen, continuously saying that people of different skill levels aren't able to work together and I severely disagree. From everything you've mentioned, pick up games do not have sufficient teamwork. But this only reflects on the players' capabilities to work as a team, and if you're saying its impossible for AF to achieve such pugs, that goes to show your view of AF pug players. I'm not satisfied with this kind of pugs in our community.

No.

This discussion was focused primarily on whether 24/7 offclassing should be allowed in a PUG situation.

I don't think a PUG SHOULD NOT have teamplay, neither do I think it SHOULD NOT be possible for teamplay to exist/improve.

Pertaining DIRECTLY to off-classing, I FEEL that pugs are NOT the right environment to allow for 24/7 off-classing at the moment BECAUSE of how PUGS are.

PUGS will ALWAYS be PUGS, in a sense that, there will always be a lack of communication compared to scrimmage, and that skill levels and game sense will be varied.

Even if you fix communication, PUGS will NEVER be at a consistently higher level as long as there is a division between pub - div 3 - div 2 - div 1.

 

PUGs are not conducive enough to perform team strategies ala your own team as an ENVIRONMENT.

 

It has nothing directly to do with the players in AF.

 

Don't infer incorrectly. Don't Shounic.

 

In short, don't argue with the concept and fundamental meaning of a Pick Up Game.

For higher level play, please ditch girlfriend, spend less time with family, or SIMPLY MAKE TIME.

The focus on people PLAYING THE GAME not to specific rules, and not something like making TEAMPLAYS MORE EFFECTIVE, through voice comms in this case, is much more troubling to me. You're disallowing players to play a part of the game, because pugs aren't capable of handling it. So when the time arises and they play matches say AFC, they may have to deal with said classes, or probably highlander. Which part of their TF2 experiences are they going to use to figure out how to play with or against them? Public servers? Work experiences? lol?

 

You don't practice for AFC matches in a pug, you do so with your team in scrims.

So no, not public servers nor work experiences.

Feel free to ditch girlfriend, spend less time with family, or quit tf2.

 

Feel free to also lol?

 

Amidst this non-logic, i can make out a little bit of a point.

Do we, allow off-classing in its entirety so as to not deprive our elite players of certain interesting gameplay options?

OR

do we, allow situational off-classing so that our new players can understand from example how cookie cutter classes are most effective, and our own seasoned pug players need not suffer losses at the hands of ineffective players attempting these interesting gameplay options.

 

How about: DO IT IN YOUR TEAM (MAKE TIME FOR IT)

 

Pyro to defend spire? Run engineer to badlands middle even. DO IT IN YOUR TEAM.

If you're that busy and can't find time, maybe you're at a stage in life where you need to move on and live a real life, and also convince your tf2 community that offclassing 24/7 should be allowed in pugs because you can't find time to scrim.

 

Nobody should have to deal with your case of wanting more interesting gameplay options at the cost of their own pug experience, which may very well incorporate wanting a roamer/scout on their team, just because you can't find teams to scrim against.

 

I don't believe that everyone follows me regarding this off-class matter, but I'm pretty sure everyone wants to improve. If players want to learn how to play a class, public servers will be a great option. But to learn about a class in a match scenario, leaving it to scrims only is not going to be near enough. Playing a game daily but not able to experience all aspects of it isn't going to benefit anyone.

Your argument to this is merely giving the majority an easier time in pugs. Will they improve? Sure, playing a scrim per week and absorb what they can from pugs, or look for a mentor. Probably only the first will apply to most when pugs, as they are now, can only do so much. And people are too "shy" to look for available mentors. (/wave) Even with available mentors, they don't ask for more help beyond the first few questions. /facepalm

While I appreciate the sentiment, and I do feel you are genuine in the respect of wanting to help,

 

I find it hard to believe that opening the floodgates on off-classing will have a direct correlation to the improvement of our community's skill level.

 

I think it is safe to say, that most new players have a main class. Playing in pugs will give them the opportunity to practice this main class. Including the option to go sniper/pyro/engi/heavy/spy will not make that player any better in his main class. If anything, now he has more options to explore than before and will be less focused on practicing his main class.

I understand that the same can be said for off-classes, and that the wannabe pyro will not have the opportunity to practice pyro to middle in match scenarios.

I think most players can agree that a bad scout/soldier> a bad sniper/spy/pyro/engi/heavy

Enough said.

 

Quote "I propose for us to consider the converse. If off-classing is allowed in its entirety and there are no restrictions, will this then boost us up up and away from the bottom of global tf2?" Since when is taking a step going to bring you to heaven? I hope you aren't that naive. But I'm glad that you can agree on the fact that we're at the bottom of the TF2 scene.

No no no, I did not agree. Refer to the "If" at start of sentence.

The correlation between "allowing off-classing in its entirety" and "the standard of play in our asiafortress community" IS NOT APPARENT.

 

PLEASE DON'T DIRECT YOUR OWN SHOW WITHOUT FIRST ESTABLISHING THIS CORRELATION BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE YOUR PREMISE.

 

Allowing off-classing in its entirety will NOT make our scouts/soldiers/demomen/medics better.

It will only encourage more off-classing to occur.

We will have MORE snipers/pyros/engineers/heavies/spies, which will make our community more diverse with new main classes in 6v6 tf2, but not necessarily BETTER.

 

MORE is not BETTER.

 

Unless......

 

lots-of-women.jpg

 

 

I think you have no idea how rules have 0 effect on pugs already.

Actually, I beg to differ.

You actually got kungfu kicked into oblivion after off-classing to sniper from pocket soldier.

That was some effect.

I don't even know what you people are arguing about, it is as though off-classing (playing the game) is a bad thing, like turning on a lamp in a lighted room. What's the difference if admins kick/ban someone abusing off-class whether the rule is around or not? Needless off-classing is still going to happen regardless. Either totally remove the rule and deal with trolls only, or start banishing people who are enjoying the game, not following these rules you deem necessary.

So... since needless off-classing will happen anyway.... we should have no rule?

 

 

 

HOLD ME BACK GUYS.

 

mind_fucking____by_mynameyourmom-d475kb4.jpg

 

I strongly suggest you scroll back a few pages, read the posts preceding this one, read it, read it again, read it one more time, let it swirl around in your head, conceptualize your argument, find the right words to say and say it carefully, because somebody is going to pick those mistakes apart.

 

There has been no blanket ban on offclassing.

 

Situational off-classing is very much acceptable to even out uber disadvantages.

 

If you are enjoying your game by making 5 other players want to kungfu kick you into oblivion, then you should be banished.

 

At the moment, we can only rely on the dwindling few responsible admins we have in AF to help us deal with players who have peaked at their class and remain stubbornly off-classed even when told by teammates but still seem to find ways and means to toss smoke bombs around the intention to offclass by suggesting that allowing 24/7 offclasses will make the game more interesting and improve the quality of the community's gameplay when we all know the real issue is the enjoyment of his own game as an offclass.

 

So rephrase with an understanding of what I had written as a whole, instead of taking chunks out to your liking because you should learn to read everything, not learn to read only.

 

 

HOLD ME BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK....

 

irony.jpg

 

I would like to end off with this beautiful image.

 

Kung-Fu-Kick.jpg

 

HAIIIIIIIIIIIII YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

small_Oblivion_Splash100.png

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Honestly the issue is that everyone has different expectations out of pugs. Nobody's right or wrong but in the end we should just settle this by asking the highest of power how he wants pugs to run. Hcaz?

I personally feel that this debate has gone to no where since our interference, it is barely helping to see the light at the end of this tunnel after reading all that has been discussed. This shall be my last post regarding this topic, I'll leave the decision to the ones in charge.

 

wanna-fight-yea-thats-what-i-thought.jpg

 

Well, duh, of course only the one in charge can make any changes to anything.

 

It has been that way interference or not.

 

If anything, this discussion has brought to light several things.

 

1. Players' position/perspective/motivations regarding this off-classing matter.

2. Players who are good at being keyboard warrior but bad at clicking faces

3. Players who are good at clicking faces but bad at reading, writing, and explaining themselves.

4. Players who are plain retard.

5. Players who can't see the logic in retards.

6. Players in army now so need to use phone to reply.

7. Players who own ice cream shop and call everyone retard.

8. Players who don't read but agree anyway because he is fanboy retard.

9. Players who own the server and try since day 1 but so tired don't want try no more.

10. Players who must do shit while owner cooks curry.

11. Players with dwindling mobile data plan who wants to read but usage gonna exceed.

12. Players who used to fight for off-classing but now are in repentance and wishes for KLOC.

13. Indian who says nothing that contributes to anything.

14. Also the rest of the players who are secretly reading this thread to have a good time with walls of text but can't be fucked to reply with their own opinion on the issue because they just don't want to get involved.

 

I've had a great time!

 

tumblr_m9sljxU4vF1r7k4w8o1_400.jpg

 

All of you :D

 

<3

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The reason I've stopped arguing is because there's so many assumptions that you're not even proving my points wrong but just throwing more assumptions into the argument. That's why before you post more images I suggest we establish what we can all unanimously agree (or close to that) what we expect and require out of pugs. There's different ways to approach the problem that you can't necessarily confidently say which one is superior or not. They're different ways to fix the problem, but the fact that everyone plays pugs for different reasons makes it pretty much impossible to come to a conclusion, plus the fact that nobody with real power has stepped in so it doesn't even matter who won in the internet slap fight, I doubt you will even take action nor significantly influence anything.

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The reason I've stopped arguing is because ??there's so many assumptions that?? you're not even proving my points wrong but just throwing more assumptions into the argument.

 

I'm sure plenty of readers disagree, but meh you can hold on to whatever illusion you wish to cling to.

 

Also, more comprehensible format please.

 

I hate to get all grammar nazi on you but I really can't understand most of what you are trying to say without feeling like I'm in secondary school doing English Paper 2 and staring at a comprehension passage.

 

Even then the passage is vetted for grammar and syntax.

 

It's okay I've done it before... let me try.

 

That's why before you post more images I suggest we establish what we can all unanimously agree (or close to that) what we expect and require out of pugs.

 

Okay, point taken.

 

General understanding: Majority of players(div1 players who play in asiafortress pugs are as rare as the dodo bird) actually want play the game with cookie cutter classes because most of us have not yet peaked in our main classes.

 

Exception: Rare few players who claim to have peaked in their classes and wish to enjoy their game and do not like it that they are restricted in a pug.

 

I would also like to point out that those players who were enjoying themselves in said offclass was exposed to some violent kungfu style kicking.

 

That could not have resulted in agreement from teammates and/or admins.

 

At this point, I think we can agree that at least a few of us here are on separate ends of the table.

 

There is no agreement but only a decision to be made from the pikachu that hides in the tall grass.

 

 

There's different ways to approach the problem that you can't necessarily confidently say which one is superior or not. They're different ways to fix the problem, but the fact that everyone plays pugs for different reasons makes it pretty much impossible to come to a conclusion, plus the fact that nobody with real power has stepped in so it doesn't even matter who won in the internet slap fight, I doubt you will even take action nor significantly influence anything.

 

This here is all fluff and your teacher would take a red pen and cancel out the entire portion before crumpling up the paper and tossing it back into your face, which is pretty much what I'm doing here now but only in an online version that has no crumpling and tossing involved but only imaginary crumpling and tossing.

 

3192581-woman-throwing-crumpled-paper-into-the-dustbin.jpg

 

"There is no right or wrong and I agree to a certain extent"

 

Take a stand, make a point, say something contributory.

 

DERP.

 

Lastly...

 

What assumptions have anybody made again?

 

You mean CETERIS PARIS?

 

Coming from somebody who wants to ceteris paris, I find it slightly ironic that you are uncomfortable with operating under certain assumptions that somehow is the reason you are not "arguing".

 

If you want to allege that somebody is making assumptions about your assumptions that assume he is assuming something that should not be assumed...

 

Back it up.

 

Don't assume that the readers of this forum are stupid, ill-informed, and/or will take what you say at face value when you make statements like "you're making x assumptions" when you can't even substantiate your argument/assumption.

 

Back it up.

 

Why are my posts gargantuan? I take the effort to substantiate and back things up. Also I like to post images because its nice.

 

I strongly suggest you scroll back a few pages, read the posts preceding this one, read it, read it again, read it one more time, let it swirl around in your head, conceptualize your argument, find the right words to say and say it carefully, because somebody is going to pick those mistakes apart.

 

If you won't/CAN'T...

 

then take the flight of stairs I offered you in my final post that lets you exit graciously and STOP digging your own grave.

 

dig_your_own_grave.png

But-why-meme-generator-but-why-84103d.jpg

 

3ovmf0.jpg

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1. Point out to me: at what point have you told me and proven to me how my opinion of how to handle the situation is 100% invalid.

 

2. You have not even addressed the problem; all you did was say how silly it could be then go on about my own spelling mistake. You've also demonstrated no understanding in why I even mention the difficulty in coming to a conclusion. No matter what you say, you still haven't fixed the problem because how will you actually enforce it? There's difficulty in that for one, but the main point is that nobodyy who is in position to actually change anything on the servers have said much, thus making the debate quite endless. There are so Many undefined variables too.

 

3. Assumption e.g: (paraphrased) "a soldier is better than the sniper in x situation". Why are you so sure? There are so many situations where either could have been just effective as the other too.

 

4. Have there even been an example of where a new player thought it was 100% okay to offclass a lot after seeing someone else do it and he then proceeded to do the same?

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Okay okay, since you've begun to dig that grave I shall give you a friendly push into deep grave.

 

1. Point out to me: at what point have you told me and proven to me how my opinion of how to handle the situation is 100% invalid.

 

Here's the solution: Treat pugs like pugs. Even in NA I promise you there is probably some asshole who will offclass like a nigger.

 

First of all, that is not a solution.

If anything, it is a mindset to adopt in order to be less bothered by a situation that otherwise irks you.

A solution would be something that pertains directly to said situation and affects a change and solves the issue at hand.

 

Invalid because nothing is solved. Invalid because nothing is handled.

 

hi, it's simple. I'm trying to say that, basically it's going to take too much effort to be worth trying to fix a problem like this.

 

Also, while you go on and on about how enforcing rules against offclassing can be "so difficult" (for the lack of a better word since you tend to use confusing language), please explain more.

RIGID, across the board rules with no exceptions or clauses littered with protocol and whatnot... that can be hard to implement.

How the earlier issue was dealt with by Andrew and Halu, being admins in the server, who observed how shit went down and kungfu kicked the perpetrator into oblivion.

Was it really that hard?

Responsible admins. That's all it takes. No need for colourful rules, just responsible admins who can make judgement calls and a community that can trust in them.

 

Invalid because you do not explain how enforcing off-classing rules are not "cost effective".

Invalid because you are here claiming how enforcing off-classing rules are unjustifiably difficult, when our admins are in the servers enforcing off-classing rules in real time.

It wasn't that hard.

Ignorance at its best.

 

This is the basis of my point; since most players actually don't needlessly off-class, why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three people? To put it simply, the fruits of the labor don't seem to cover the cost of the labor, plus the issue doesn't happen often, so you could probably ignore it.

 

Invalid because, given that your fruits of labor vs cost of labor comparison spontaneously combusts, this issue cannot and will not be ignored.

 

Halu/And's example is only one of the mentioned cases.

 

Invalid because....

 

"This is the basis of my point; since most (people) actually don't (steal), why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three (thieves)?"

 

Must I spoon feed you?

 

Normally people don't flash on the streets... why bother creating strict rules against flashers?

 

mind_fucking____by_mynameyourmom-d475kb4.jpg

 

1 down, 3 more to go.

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2. You have not even addressed the problem; all you did was say how silly it could be then go on about my own spelling mistake. You've also demonstrated no understanding in why I even mention the difficulty in coming to a conclusion. No matter what you say, you still haven't fixed the problem because how will you actually enforce it? There's difficulty in that for one, but the main point is that nobodyy who is in position to actually change anything on the servers have said much, thus making the debate quite endless. There are so Many undefined variables too.

 

I think the forum, as a platform for discussion, is an environment for participants to discuss and through this discussion move progressively towards the formation of a solution and/or better ways to deal with any issue being discussed.

 

If you can truly understand the debate as it is, you will NOT see its endlessness, but instead be able to see whatever salient points are being made and later be able to contribute to the discussion.

 

The act of slamming the lid on discussion because, well, "you are assuming too much", or "you can't enforce this", or "its too difficult", or "nobody in charge is here", or "there are too many undefined variables!", stifles any form of pushing towards a plausible end point or debate.

 

Learn to read, understand, and consider how things can be valid, instead of deeming everything you don't understand as invalid and impossible to set into motion.

 

As much as this sounds like something in favour of the off-classing situation, because well... pyro/engineer to middle is something we deem invalid at the moment, I invite all adventurous offclassers to put this to the test extensively in your respective teams.

 

In the next season of AFC or Merc Cup, let us watch that finals match when engineer walks to middle and builds a sentry gun.

 

Once that works out, let's revisit introducing this as a viable strat n opening things up to pugs!

 

Just because Pikachu does not want to emerge from the pokeball does NOT mean discussion should cease.

Just because there is no active conclusion at this current moment does NOT mean discussion should cease.

 

Discussion with others or oneself is the basis of breakthrough.

 

The earth was never always known to be round.

 

Oh yes, I nearly forgot.

 

There is a difference between situational and 24/7 off-classing, and 24/7 offclassing can hurt the team more than benefit it, especially since pugs lack communication, a consistent skill level, and thus teamwork.

 

Sure having an offclass is viable but you must have a team that plays around those strats. Masterful used to have the threat of panda as a full time spy and that worked out because we could go all out aggro on more cautious enemies. Im protects sheep really well but then he never fails to pick off targets..

You're right to say that offclassing at certain times is viable to mix the game up but do you think pug teams know how to adapt to it?worse is that news sitting in spec would try to replicate without understanding which is the cancer of most pugs these days. Sorry my phone is crap lol

as for using pug to experiment off classing is just plain retarded autally using pugs to experiment ANYTHING is retarded it only helps you for pugging if you really wana experiment to win just get a fix team and do it there wont be any bitching or what not

 

For more information about my stand on off-classing(which is me addressing the problem at hand many times with images and colors), please scroll up and read. Like really, read.

 

Maybe reading won't help you.

 

Maybe the problem is you.

 

This is no assumption.

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Okay okay, since you've begun to dig that grave I shall give you a friendly push into deep grave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Invalid because nothing is solved. Invalid because nothing is handled.

 

 

 

 

 

Invalid because you do not explain how enforcing off-classing rules are not "cost effective".

Invalid because you are here claiming how enforcing off-classing rules are unjustifiably difficult, when our admins are in the servers enforcing off-classing rules in real time.

It wasn't that hard.

Ignorance at its best.

 

 

 

Invalid because, given that your fruits of labor vs cost of labor comparison spontaneously combusts, this issue cannot and will not be ignored.

 

Halu/And's example is only one of the mentioned cases.

 

Invalid because....

 

 

 

Must I spoon feed you?

 

Normally people don't flash on the streets... why bother creating strict rules against flashers?

 

mind_fucking____by_mynameyourmom-d475kb4.jpg

 

1 down, 3 more to go.

 

hi.

 

1. a solution is "a means of solving a problem or dealing with a difficult situation." So dealing with the problem by ignoring doesn't fit? lol

 

2. by simply just settling for kicking people doesn't that simplify the problem and would cost less than thinking of new rules? What kind of rules will you impose if you were given the power then?

 

3. your analogy don't have the same impact.... This is just a video game, 99% of the time it won't actually significantly impact you.

 

Let's compare stealing to off-classing.

 

stealing is enforced today, because

 

-> stealing sucks. And most of the time, people who do steal, will steal something (or multiple things) that in total are valued highly. if you are the victim you MAY be seriously affected by it in some way. For example, you might lose your job, you may get paid less. comprender??????

 

-> people have ESTABLISHED that the majority dislike stealing. so ALL forms of stealing is unacceptable.

 

off-classing doesn't really apply because

 

-> yes it sucks, but it's an issue you can brush off. So the worse it can ever get, a worst-case scenario is one where literally everyone is off-classing except you right? How does this even BEGIN to compare with things that COULD happen as a result of off-classing? Are you really going to kill yourself because pugs are ruined? (Please do). Most of the time people come to the forums to bitch about it. Acordar?

 

-> We have no even established what the majority want from pugs, and off-classing as a result of that. I'm not asking you to try and reason what the answer may be. I'm asking not you specifically, but for the community to make a decision together so WE CAN ACTUALLY COME TO A REASONABLE CONCLUSION. It's no use guessing what the community wants, acordar???????

 

comprender??????????????????????????????????????

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hi.

 

1. a solution is "a means of solving a problem or dealing with a difficult situation." So dealing with the problem by ignoring doesn't fit? lol

 

2. by simply just settling for kicking people doesn't that simplify the problem and would cost less than thinking of new rules? What kind of rules will you impose if you were given the power then?

 

3. your analogy don't have the same impact.... This is just a video game, 99% of the time it won't actually significantly impact you.

 

Let's compare stealing to off-classing.

 

stealing is enforced today, because

 

-> stealing sucks. And most of the time, people who do steal, will steal something (or multiple things) that in total are valued highly. if you are the victim you MAY be seriously affected by it in some way. For example, you might lose your job, you may get paid less. comprender??????

 

-> people have ESTABLISHED that the majority dislike stealing. so ALL forms of stealing is unacceptable.

 

off-classing doesn't really apply because

 

-> yes it sucks, but it's an issue you can brush off. So the worse it can ever get, a worst-case scenario is one where literally everyone is off-classing except you right? How does this even BEGIN to compare with things that COULD happen as a result of off-classing? Are you really going to kill yourself because pugs are ruined? (Please do). Most of the time people come to the forums to bitch about it. Acordar?

 

-> We have no even established what the majority want from pugs, and off-classing as a result of that. I'm not asking you to try and reason what the answer may be. I'm asking not you specifically, but for the community to make a decision together so WE CAN ACTUALLY COME TO A REASONABLE CONCLUSION. It's no use guessing what the community wants, acordar???????

 

comprender??????????????????????????????????????

 

No.

Don't take the analogy of stealing too seriously. I can easily substitute it for flashing, sucking balls, wiggling bottoms, eating oranges, or being retarded like Shounic.

The subject matter is the RULE itself, the motivation of the RULE, and NOT the off-classing, or the flashing, or the sucking balls, or the wiggling bottoms, or the eating oranges, or the retardation of Shounic.

 

Now let me get back to no.3 and no.4.

 

Also, at least change the font when you paste from a website. (edit : oh good you changed it. good for you!)

 

Oh wait before i forget...

 

1. a solution is "a means of solving a problem or dealing with a difficult situation." So dealing with the problem by ignoring doesn't fit? lol

 

Arguing-Semantics-3.jpg

 

Shounic : well... technically speaking... ignoring is dealing with a situation... so.... that is solving the situation right?

 

 

mind_fucking____by_mynameyourmom-d475kb4.jpg

 

I really like this one it really gets me abit mindfucked.

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3. Assumption e.g: (paraphrased) "a soldier is better than the sniper in x situation". Why are you so sure? There are so many situations where either could have been just effective as the other too.

 

Again, reminiscent of k1infran's perspective, I agree.

 

There can be many situations in which offclass>main class.

 

That particular offclass will, arguably, require some form of communication with the team in order to embrace and play around that offclassing strategy, and I refer to Summer's post above where he quotes panda as spy in Masterful.

 

So, if you still are unable to comprenderrrr...

 

Leave the adventurous strategies to the scrims where your teammates bear the brunt of your transgressions.

 

4. Have there even been an example of where a new player thought it was 100% okay to offclass a lot after seeing someone else do it and he then proceeded to do the same?

 

In before stating examples, even if newcomers would somehow be impervious to seeing veteran offclassing and thus feel like wanting to try it when they are not ready... the issue still stands that adventurous offclassing is something that not everybody on your PUG team will agree to.

 

An example is Halu/Andrew dealing with a pocket soldier offclassing to sniper.

 

need I bring up the qjyaps and mamamias and yoogs and xilvers and tharnoses to solidify the existence of this problem?

 

The fact that I need not state solid references stems from the fact that this issue is already widely recognized in the community which is why natapon had to instill such an offclassing rule in the first place and place it in the MOTD.

 

During that period in time, players were truly unable to enjoy a pug game when new players/veterans blatantly come in and offclass.

 

off-classing to mid: no, i don't care who you are

necessity is situation dependent. why do you need to offclass in the first place?

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but this did not come from nowhere.

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I think the forum, as a platform for discussion, is an environment for participants to discuss and through this discussion move progressively towards the formation of a solution and/or better ways to deal with any issue being discussed.

 

If you can truly understand the debate as it is, you will NOT see its endlessness, but instead be able to see whatever salient points are being made and later be able to contribute to the discussion.

 

The act of slamming the lid on discussion because, well, "you are assuming too much", or "you can't enforce this", or "its too difficult", or "nobody in charge is here", or "there are too many undefined variables!", stifles any form of pushing towards a plausible end point or debate.

 

Learn to read, understand, and consider how things can be valid, instead of deeming everything you don't understand as invalid and impossible to set into motion.

 

Just because Pikachu does not want to emerge from the pokeball does NOT mean discussion should cease.

Just because there is no active conclusion at this current moment does NOT mean discussion should cease.

 

Discussion with others or oneself is the basis of breakthrough.

 

The earth was never always known to be round.

 

Oh yes, I nearly forgot.

 

There is a difference between situational and 24/7 off-classing, and 24/7 offclassing can hurt the team more than benefit it, especially since pugs lack communication, a consistent skill level, and thus teamwork.

 

 

 

 

For more information about my stand on off-classing(which is me addressing the problem at hand many times with images and colors), please scroll up and read. Like really, read.

 

Maybe reading won't help you.

 

Maybe the problem you.

 

This is no assumption.

 

Show me how we've made any breakthrough? So assume we take your idea, how have we come up with a solution to "STOPPING UNNECESSARY OFFCLASSING IN AF SERVERS"? I'm pointing how idiotically you've been trying to argue why playing another class could be bad and the argument would literally never end because both sides are true to an extent. k1 can just keep talking about how we should be able to deal with offclassing in pugs, and you would try and suggest how sticking to the main 4 is the best way to play tf2. How has this helped find a solution to the problem?? "oh playing a class other than the main 4 is bad, and here's why." okay....... but what did that fix? lol

 

FYI >>>>>> Summer agreed with k1, and the only real issue was how pug teams probably won't know what to do about offclassing, but you already saw k1's response to that..

 

then pinkie just says he thinks experimenting in pugs is dumb, okay. but what if the person isn't experimenting and is confident in his own offclassing abilities to carry the team? :o

 

But then you make another dumb blanket statement about how offclassing can hurt more than benefit. well it also can benefit more than hurt. lelelleellelelel great discussion at hand.

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Again, reminiscent of k1infran's perspective, I agree.

 

There can be many situations in which offclass>main class.

 

That particular offclass will, arguably, require some form of communication with the team in order to embrace and play around that offclassing strategy, and I refer to Summer's post above where he quotes panda as spy in Masterful.

 

So, if you still are unable to comprenderrrr...

 

Leave the adventurous strategies to the scrims where your teammates bear the brunt of your transgressions.

 

 

 

In before stating examples, even if newcomers would somehow be impervious to seeing veteran offclassing and thus feel like wanting to try it when they are not ready... the issue still stands that adventurous offclassing is something that not everybody on your PUG team will agree to.

 

An example is Halu/Andrew dealing with a pocket soldier offclassing to sniper.

 

need I bring up the qjyaps and mamamias and yoogs and xilvers and tharnoses to solidify the existence of this problem?

 

The fact that I need not state solid references stems from the fact that this issue is already widely recognized in the community which is why natapon had to instill such an offclassing rule in the first place and place it in the MOTD.

 

During that period in time, players were truly unable to enjoy a pug game when new players/veterans blatantly come in and offclass.

 

 

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but this did not come from nowhere.

 

so.... when does solo sniper who does his own thing need communication? What if he can hold down a flank on his own, how much communication does that take? What if he doesn't even listen when teams want to push up? what if it's better that way?

 

LOL. Come up with a better analogy then. The point of making rules is to DETER people from doing it right? So...... people did it anyways. the rule failed. Some had consequences brought upon them, some didn't. Regardless, we're talking about off-classing so why talk about something else? Re-write it to be more relevant.

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No.

Don't take the analogy of stealing too seriously. I can easily substitute it for flashing, sucking balls, wiggling bottoms, eating oranges, or being retarded like Shounic.

The subject matter is the RULE itself, the motivation of the RULE, and NOT the off-classing, or the flashing, or the sucking balls, or the wiggling bottoms, or the eating oranges, or the retardation of Shounic.

 

Now let me get back to no.3 and no.4.

 

Also, at least change the font when you paste from a website.

 

Oh wait before i forget...

 

1. a solution is "a means of solving a problem or dealing with a difficult situation." So dealing with the problem by ignoring doesn't fit? lol

 

Arguing-Semantics-3.jpg

 

Shounic : well... technically speaking... ignoring is dealing with a situation... so.... that is solving the situation right?

 

 

mind_fucking____by_mynameyourmom-d475kb4.jpg

 

I really like this one it really gets me abit mindfucked.

 

nice edit.

 

 

Since the problem is not that major, okay yes he's burdening, but why not just stop getting mad at him, oh well your pug sucked. Get an admin, ban him -> win. Yes, it's like how OOOHHH WHEN SOMEONE STEALS, THAT'S AN INCONVENIENCE TOO. YES, YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO AVOID IT. EVEN THOUGH THEY GET CAUGHT IN THE END THE DEED WAS STILL DONE. When you don't have robots to moderate the servers for you off-classing i promise you, no matter how many rules you try and fabricate out your anus will probably not stop it. What's a better solution than that, that OH WAIT, DOESN'T COST TOO MUCH? THAT SOUNDS FAMILIAR LELELELELELELLEL

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Show me how we've made any breakthrough? So assume we take your idea, how have we come up with a solution to "STOPPING UNNECESSARY OFFCLASSING IN AF SERVERS"? I'm pointing how idiotically you've been trying to argue why playing another class could be bad and the argument would literally never end because both sides are true to an extent. k1 can just keep talking about how we should be able to deal with offclassing in pugs, and you would try and suggest how sticking to the main 4 is the best way to play tf2. How has this helped find a solution to the problem?? "oh playing a class other than the main 4 is bad, and here's why." okay....... but what did that fix? lol

 

FYI >>>>>> Summer agreed with k1, and the only real issue was how pug teams probably won't know what to do about offclassing, but you already saw k1's response to that..

 

then pinkie just says he thinks experimenting in pugs is dumb, okay. but what if the person isn't experimenting and is confident in his own offclassing abilities to carry the team? :o

 

But then you make another dumb blanket statement about how offclassing can hurt more than benefit. well it also can benefit more than hurt. lelelleellelelel great discussion at hand.

 

Read properly.

 

Summer elaborates on how team communication is important to make a strategy surround an off-class more effective.

Aycan elaborates on how you can keep off-classing away from pugs and within a fixed team because that is where you can really test new strategies out.

Shounic elaborates on nothing and digs himself a grave.

 

Whilst the rest of your posts revolve around how rules will not be able to stop every potential offclasser lelelelel....

 

WE ALREADY KNOW THAT.

RULES WILL NOT STOP EVERYONE.

TRAFFIC LIGHTS WILL NOT STOP ACCIDENTS FROM HAPPENING.

SOMETIMES SHIT HAPPENS.

 

But the traffic lights remain.

 

Okay I'm anticipating another rebuttal based on how traffic lights are a bad analogy... oh god no...

 

I have to create analogies for simpletons to understand what is actually obvious to all.

 

You know what?

 

Here... i'll provide you with a digital staircase.

 

never-ending-staircase.jpg

 

Enter and never return.

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Read properly.

 

Summer elaborates on how team communication is important to make a strategy surround an off-class more effective.

Aycan elaborates on how you can keep off-classing away from pugs and within a fixed team because that is where you can really test new strategies out.

Shounic elaborates on nothing and digs himself a grave.

 

Whilst the rest of your posts revolve around how rules will not be able to stop every potential offclasser lelelelel....

 

WE ALREADY KNOW THAT.

RULES WILL NOT STOP EVERYONE.

TRAFFIC LIGHTS WILL NOT STOP ACCIDENTS FROM HAPPENING.

SOMETIMES SHIT HAPPENS.

 

But the traffic lights remain.

 

Okay I'm anticipating another rebuttal based on how traffic lights are a bad analogy... oh god no...

 

I have to create analogies for simpletons to understand what is actually obvious to all.

 

You know what?

 

Here... i'll provide you with a digital staircase.

 

never-ending-staircase.jpg

 

Enter and never return.

 

1. you didn't answer questions i have asked you before

 

2. what are you still arguing for if we already know that?

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The repasting of my very cute image which i stole from somewhere. don't tell you where.

 

In before this becomes a juvenile rant from Shounic which involves "u!", "no u!"..."no u u!".....

 

I'd like to welcome other players in our community with valid perspectives to bring something new to the table.

 

Of course, you'll have to make your way through walls upon walls of text before you can begin to make an addition to this ongoing conversation.

 

I speak out to the people who are reading but not posting.

 

This community is yours as well as it is ours.

 

People post their opinions here and debate on an issue because they have something at stake and they care enough to post.

Some others post because they are trying so very hard to claw at the remains of their mangled pride.

 

Let your voice be heard!

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why are you guys even still arguing about this......

 

1)OFF-CLASSING IS OK

2)LOSING IS NOT OK

3)IF YOUR LOSING STOP OFF-CLASSING

4)IF YOUR OFF-CLASSING AND LOSING AND YOU THINK ITS NOT YOUR FAULT BUT TEAMMATE RETARD THEN WIN

5) IF LOSE WHEN NEVER OFF-CLASS U RETARD KTHX

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In before this becomes a juvenile rant from Shounic which involves "u!", "no u!"..."no u u!".....

 

I'd like to welcome other players in our community with valid perspectives to bring something new to the table.

 

Of course, you'll have to make your way through walls upon walls of text before you can begin to make an addition to this ongoing conversation.

 

I speak out to the people who are reading but not posting.

 

This community is yours as well as it is ours.

 

People post their opinions here and debate on an issue because they have something at stake and they care enough to post.

Some others post because they are trying so very hard to claw at the remains of their mangled pride.

 

Let your voice be heard!

 

hi answer the questions?

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why are you guys even still arguing about this......

 

Because this

 

Some others post because they are trying so very hard to claw at the remains of their mangled pride.

 

I was ready to let it all go with a big hug!

 

tumblr_m9sljxU4vF1r7k4w8o1_400.jpg

 

- big hug??

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I speak from my own personal opinion so please dont screw my post up with rebuttals and such its just merely a personal opinion.

 

I for one agree that pugs should not have too much off classing and off classing is generally not acceptable. Sure some might say that off classing improves the class used but then again we should do that in our own fixed teams as someone else said (forgot who).

 

In addition, if we generalize this and put things from a spectators point of logical reasoning. Veteran puggers -> experienced -> MOST LIKELY have teams themselves or already have learnt how to decently offclass.

 

The subject now is that what EXACTLY is the purpose of these pugs. Some might say its for new people to learn while others is for veterans to practice and upgrade themselves. However look at it in this case. If veterans are experienced and not new to the scene they should have the connections and skills to make and form a team themselves to scrim and practice these offclasses. Pugs should theoretically (and backed up with the current influx) have more new people. These new people dont necessarily know off classing and its subjectiveness in this community, and thus could possibly run it full time or not at all even when they should be.

 

However since these people are new, they should (and i believe most would agree) learn the cookie cutter classes first, hence off classing should be done to a minimum (whether or not ur new or a veteran) so that the pugs can be a place for new people who DONT USUALLY have the connections to make a team, try out these standard classes. For the veterans, if you really want to offclass, get a scramble or something and do it, dont deprive the possible opportunity of new people getting the wrong idea and picking up the idea of running full time sniper instead of scout.

 

Sure then again rebuttals galore, and some might argue that a spy can be as efficient as a scout. Sure, I agree, after all this is a FPS game right? But the fact is these classes have been proven to be at least easier to learn up and the understanding of the basics of these classes are vital (or at least most likely) to learn how to properly play 6s.

 

TL;DR of above; if you really like offclassing, and your a veteran, get a team or mix. Dont let ur offclassing disrupt other possible new players in a Pug which are genuinely trying to learn the basics from scratch or are trying to improve. if you like offclassing and ur new, the pubs are honestly a better place to practice.

 

Secondly, regarding the admins and how off classing can be enforced. We all MUST know there is NO, AND NEVER WILL BE, A PERFECT SOLUTION. What it all boils down in the end is a conscious of heart. For example, lately with all these 'double standards" and "admins kungfu kicking people" requires responsibility does it not? Furthermore, with offclassing being honestly very subjective, there really can never be a perfect solution. in my opinion the best solution is the votekick option. Its there for a reason, if your team mate offclassing like retart then click the dam button la edeot, dont whine and bitch and in the end do nothing.

 

TL;DR of second part; No perfect solution for enforcing rules, in my opinion at least, it takes the attitude of admins and people in the pug to properly enforce "rules" if you want to put it that way.

 

P.S I AM OFFERING JUST MY 2 CENTS DONT EYE RAPE ME WITH YOUR REBUTTALS AND "WHY U NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION" GO SCREW URSELF IF U CAN EVEN READ THIS.

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hi answer the questions?

 

oh u mean this?

 

so.... when does solo sniper who does his own thing need communication? What if he can hold down a flank on his own, how much communication does that take? What if he doesn't even listen when teams want to push up? what if it's better that way?

 

Solo sniper instead of scout/soldier will change how the midfight is played, adjustments to different roles of other classes will be made to cover for lack of scout/soldier. Summer expounds on this comparing to sheep/panda.

 

If he can hold a flank on his own, bravo.

Can every sniper hold his flank on his own? VERY unlikely.

Should pugs be the environment for this? <--- here is point, don't miss it!

 

Nobody needs to answer your 101 what-if situations.

 

Show me how we've made any breakthrough? So assume we take your idea, how have we come up with a solution to "STOPPING UNNECESSARY OFFCLASSING IN AF SERVERS"? I'm pointing how idiotically you've been trying to argue why playing another class could be bad and the argument would literally never end because both sides are true to an extent. k1 can just keep talking about how we should be able to deal with offclassing in pugs, and you would try and suggest how sticking to the main 4 is the best way to play tf2. How has this helped find a solution to the problem?? "oh playing a class other than the main 4 is bad, and here's why." okay....... but what did that fix? lol

 

Breakthroughs happen through conversation and reflection, and even if there weren't any breakthroughs it doesn't mean we cannot make use of a forum provided to us for specific use of discussion anyway.

 

Playing another class can be good, it can be bad, just take the experimentation of the meta-game into your own team.

 

That's about it.

 

Nobody can stop you from polluting this thread with more garbage.

 

Very much like how you simply cannot slam the lid on this discussion right now.

 

I implore you though, to direct your attention to more contributive aspects regarding the discussion.

 

If you TRULY feel like this discussion can go nowhere, and you have nothing constructive to contribute...

 

Take the stairs bro. It's right there.

 

Also, nobody expects rules to solve situations entirely.

 

You cannot reverse logic this by saying that "rules will not solve this situation fully" and argue that rules should then be removed(correct me if i'm wrong in assuming this is your stand).

 

off-classing to mid: no, i don't care who you are

necessity is situation dependent. why do you need to offclass in the first place?

 

These rules are what reduced a far more rampant off-classing shitfest back in December 2012 B.M.(Before Mokee's) to what we have today, which is progressive in my opinion.

 

It didn't work 100% of the time, but I don't see pyros/engineers/spies/heavies/snipers to middle as often now isn't it?

 

The rule didn't fail because it wasn't made to be 100% foolproof.

 

I really do not wish to answer anymore self-explanatory questions that most literate people can figure out on their own or what-if situations that you are attempting to use rhetorically.

 

Use those what-if situations in YOUR TEAM.

 

Biotics, on the other hand, reads through these posts in one sitting despite having an O level history paper tomorrow, and comes up with a very sensible opinion on the issue, expressed clearly, concisely and makes a good case.

 

Bravo, young man, bravo.

 

Your stupidity is not our responsibility.

 

Good day!

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tl;dr of this thread.

 

Using classes that don't fit within the standard competitive format ( scout scout soldier medic demo soldier) usually happens for a reason. This reason is usually contextual. This type of context generally results in pickups - where the organisation and skill level is lower than where off classing is actually consistently successful, becoming a mess. Ideally, people wouldn't do the "hey let's not be dicks and ruin this and ruin it for everybody", but many people do it so rules are created. Rules are imperfect, people now argue about validity of rules.

 

I fit into the extreme end and the lenient end of different responses to this situation. On one hand, I have very little tolerance for offclassing for no reason. On the other hand, I'm not too worried by a mediocre sniper going sniper if they can give a decent reason why they think it's the best option.

 

Personal computation on the matter : there is no purely correct solution possible given small community population parameters, and the Australian community has not managed to come up with a solution. Only the US/EU communities worked it out with very, very strict moderation of closed in-house communities for the upper percentile of the community so top players could play in a structured environment when off classing makes sense. Even then, this same debate exists, they simply have a broader range of solutions.

 

Conclusion : There are going to be double standards because some players interacting with these pickups really can justify off classing. There will be many who do not, and deserve the ban hammer. This will create conflict, but not as much conflict as shutting down all off classing as a result of a 'purpose of the pickups' question/debate. As a result, the issue becomes the application of rules and how existing admins and community members do so with clear transparency. If people play a non-core class, there must be reasons why. This however, places the greatest strain on existing personnel costs/administration of all possible solutions.

 

tl;dr tl;dr

 

fuck I hope people don't think ozfortress has it better than here or I might actually need to tie a noose for myself and spammah*

 

camel*

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