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rolling to spec in pugs

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im sorry for posting this thread, guys. I didn't mean to cause any of this argument and hate to occur.I feel bad.Really sorry.

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im sorry for posting this thread, guys. I didn't mean to cause any of this argument and hate to occur.I feel bad.Really sorry.

 

Hey hey hey, chin up young fella.

 

This isn't a bad argument!

 

This is for the benefit of the offclassing discourse!

 

After all, my hug should count for something right?

 

tumblr_m9sljxU4vF1r7k4w8o1_400.jpg

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... eventually players will realize how little our local community has progressed as compared to our asian friends.

 

Since when has anybody after the 2008 - 2011 era cared about the growth of the community? It's always been a few individuals running the show (nata, zach, emir), the rest just play because they enjoy the game, but not giving a fuck about the people who actually have contributed or put in effort. I still remember Xilver who went through so much effort of setting up an AF IRC which could be used in game but nobody helped to get it started, and now you guys only know him as that sniper who doesn't give a fuck...

 

Anyway on the topic of the pug offclassing, you can't have a fixed set of rules. It's up to the admins to make the best decision based on the situation, and these admins should be picked by nata based on his judgement. Idk the reason why he has taken away our kicking privileges but he should have only removed it for the guys who have proved themselves irresponsible in positions of power (e.g. THARNOS: who kicks people because he loses or doesn't like your face, and also offclasses freely).

 

My criteria for teammates choosing to offclass:

 

1) If you're anything OTHER than a scout/roamer, you have absolutely no right to off-class in most situations. The most I can think of is the pocket switching out to heavy to push lasts but almost everything else isn't viable.

 

2) Most common form of offclassing is playing sniper. If you're a player like sud/k1 who can hit shots during midfights, I won't complain, though I DO tell them to change if they aren't doing shit. If you snipe on gran mid after I explicitly tell you not to, I will fucking want to ban you instantly.

 

Anyway in 6v6 there was never an intention to have "utilities". The cookie cutter classes are what they are BECAUSE they have been proven since 2007 - present day to be the most effective in the most fights. Sure you backstab or hs a medic at mid, but that one less scout leaves your flanks wide open and your team gets destroyed because they don't have that extra useful class which draws enemy fire, denies jumpers, harasses, and whatever other shit the scout is supposedly capable of doing.

 

Unless you're a sniper that can constantly quick scope 150-dmg enemies, air-hs jumpers and just basically aid your team, then carry on. Just remember that you gave up your roaming/scout responsibility (which are easier to achieve aim consistency) to benefit your team, so don't do it just for personal glory because nobody gives a fuck about your p-rec bookmarks which will appear in the frag movie that you'll never make.

 

Lastly, admins and most other players should just follow these simple guidelines for players who are truly useless at offclassing a.k.a the Summer method:

 

Step 1: I tell you nicely to stop offclassing

Step 2: I warn you to stop offclassing

Step 3: I warn you with swear words to stop

Step 4: I will kick your ass if i had the fucking admin power

 

If the same guy tries again in a separate pug, then i'd recommend a ban.

 

TLDR version: Kick people who are useless offclassers if they fail to listen to their teammates after repeated warnings, and admins should behave themselves and not have double standards for their friends.

 

Just remember this: People always say play to have fun, but think, is losing fun? Don't screw up the game for people who try to play the game seriously just to boost your own fucking ego.

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You people are busting this poor man's post about rolling to spectate in pugs. I've posted my view in another area where it is relevant.

 

Here's an addition, the community is stagnant as shit, veterans are getting too old to wait for newcomers to grow the fuck up. Offering help to people with only a couple taking things to the next level besides just a few questions, and they go back to being the shit they were shortly after. No particular names to mention, you know who you are if you're even on this forums.

 

Off-classing or not, you can ban players from AF, even veterans. I myself would probably find another game to play and just play public anyway. Pugs are shit in quality all the while if you're at div1 level, I make things interesting for myself(and maybe to some others) to win the game in another way.

 

I'm sorry that we're losing 2-3 rounds after 10minutes of game, and you think we can't win just cause I sniped half the game. Perhaps I should have played soldier and we win 5-0 in 10minutes.

 

I learned one thing from a game designer recently, he created the classes for FF14. When haters complained that a class, known as warrior, couldn't be a tank he was designed to be, he told them LEARN TO PLAY. The next week, a team with a warrior cleared the end game.

 

I'm not saying I'm Naoki Yoshida, but here's my plea to you people.

"Bitch I'm a fabulous sniper...." I mean.... Learn to play with other classes..

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Finally we get some real conversation going.

 

I'm sorry that we're losing 2-3 rounds after 10minutes of game, and you think we can't win just cause I sniped half the game. Perhaps I should have played soldier and we win 5-0 in 10minutes.

I'm not saying I'm Naoki Yoshida, but here's my plea to you people.

"Bitch I'm a fabulous sniper...." I mean.... Learn to play with other classes..

 

Anyway in 6v6 there was never an intention to have "utilities". The cookie cutter classes are what they are BECAUSE they have been proven since 2007 - present day to be the most effective in the most fights. Sure you backstab or hs a medic at mid, but that one less scout leaves your flanks wide open and your team gets destroyed because they don't have that extra useful class which draws enemy fire, denies jumpers, harasses, and whatever other shit the scout is supposedly capable of doing.

 

Unless you're a sniper that can constantly quick scope 150-dmg enemies, air-hs jumpers and just basically aid your team, then carry on. Just remember that you gave up your roaming/scout responsibility (which are easier to achieve aim consistency) to benefit your team, so don't do it just for personal glory because nobody gives a fuck about your p-rec bookmarks which will appear in the frag movie that you'll never make.

 

Just remember this: People always say play to have fun, but think, is losing fun? Don't screw up the game for people who try to play the game seriously just to boost your own fucking ego.

 

Ding ding ding~

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So now why do you think TF2 isn't as successful as other games? Too easy? Too cartoon-ish? I feel its just too plain because its been dictated to have specific classes only in competitive. Yes, its proven that such classes may be most effective. But when a team works differently, offering another element to the game, it makes the opponent rethink strategies. With that saying, isn't it the same if an off-class is capable of taking down certain classes better, and the problem being you guys aren't able to adapt to this and play accordingly?

 

Common scenario, a scout not defending his demo on rollout. Demo blames scout, but can't defensive sticky. ANOTHER scenario, scout not denying roaming soldier. Combo blames scout. Where did all that MGE airshot skills go? I can list multiple scenarios for core classes, if played well of course everything succeeds. But often enough these ugly situations happen even when said classes are played.

 

Now here's one for utilities that people can perhaps play off:

Scenario spy, spy to mid, wait for pick, team denies(not kill) roamer/scouts and protect med, spy kills med or crucial player. Push with uber to mid and probably ends the round in their favor if played right. Too hard? I don't think so, looks a bit challenging, a risk for greater reward imo.

 

There are so many scenarios where an off-class in a team can excel if players knows how to work around them, but rules are set here so people are inclined to follow, afraid to experiment options or have not been introduced to other possibilities. A great example from a recent TF2 competition, Immunity fared decently with an off-class sniper. Why?

 

Of course in an FPS game, everything is down to the moment. Everyone bitch and whine when they die or lose. If you're playing any class and you suck so badly, you deserve to be fucked by some awesome typing skills. If you're an off-class player that is doing his job, EVERYONE KEEPS QUIET! But once you lose a round or two, people starts whining like a baby. Can I fuck those demos that want to demo but fails roll out? Can I send scouts to MGE when they fail to duel other scouts successfully? Can I kick players that are new to pugs, offering 0 contribution to every fight but trying to learn? Just because someone is better playing another class, means he can't play others?

 

If you fail a couple of rounds off-classing, you should switch. If teams are even and game is still ongoing, what the fuck are people arguing about? Must you be ahead from the start til the end to win the game? No. Do comebacks happen? Everyday.

 

TL;DR IT IS NOT HARD TO WORK WITH AN OFF-CLASS. BROADEN YOUR PERSPECTIVE OF THE GAME FFS.

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Sure having an offclass is viable but you must have a team that plays around those strats. Masterful used to have the threat of panda as a full time spy and that worked out because we could go all out aggro on more cautious enemies. Im protects sheep really well but then he never fails to pick off targets..

 

You're right to say that offclassing at certain times is viable to mix the game up but do you think pug teams know how to adapt to it?worse is that news sitting in spec would try to replicate without understanding which is the cancer of most pugs these days. Sorry my phone is crap lol

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Now to the topic of our community: Are they able to handle these off-class situations? I don't think it's too much to ask for. It is as simple as the idea of demo rolling out to mid, and a scout (who reaches 2nd/3rd to mid), looks out for him first.

 

Yes, we are behind in terms of many qualities required to play TF2 as competitively as other regions, even quantity is a problem for us since we are considered small. Can't even pool together enough decent teams to make an interesting LAN event. That doesn't mean we should not regularly improve ourselves to be adaptive. The game is old enough as it is, so for us to make games continue to be interesting (since valve isn't doing much except making boxes for us to buy keys), new style of gameplay is probably the only option.

 

I can only recommend that players have to prove they are capable of handling an off-class, before they be allowed to use it more frequently than other players. But definitely not just running off-class the entire game, which I doubt anyone has ever done in a regular pug. If you're at the level of performing with an off-class during pugs, I'm pretty sure you know when you should or should not off-class. This may sound a bit harsh on players who hasn't acquired that skill level. However, I'm hoping for them to look as if it's a goal to work towards.

 

So here's another point that may help our scene: Recognition

 

This should be given for players with a special or different skillset, be it frag videos, AFL achievements or even regular pug star players. Because in this community, people are so introverted that when pros offer help to the public, very few bothered to take these rare opportunities to improve. Perhaps our pros don't look as impressive as those from other regions in our community?

 

Maybe we're lacking publicity? We can seek help from tf2.tv for our major tournys but that's about it. We have to work for ourselves to be known. So if you guys really want to help this community to grow, I hope... no I implore you, the community, to get your shit together, improve your gameplay and if you have time, make a video or two, spam the shit out of our media section.

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So here's another point that may help our scene: Recognition This should be given for players with a special or different skillset, be it frag videos, AFL achievements or even regular pug star players. Because in this community, people are so introverted that when pros offer help to the public, very few bothered to take these rare opportunities to improve. Perhaps our pros don't look as impressive as those from other regions in our community? Maybe we're lacking publicity? We can seek help from tf2.tv for our major tournys but that's about it. We have to work for ourselves to be known. So if you guys really want to help this community to grow, I hope... no I implore you, the community, to get your shit together, improve your gameplay and if you have time, make a video or two, spam the shit out of our media section.

 

I've been messing around with making huds and mainmenus etc. I could include the asiafortress logo somewhere on the main menu.Maybe even a subtle link to this website. Might not help alot but its worth a shot. :D.

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Allowing for special rules to apply to special people who are recognized = double standard

 

Double standards make for drama and an unhappy community.

 

Of course life is unfair, double standards cannot be avoided, deal with it, blah blah blah (im anticipating rebuttal coming along these lines).

 

Not too long ago we've had sagas of this double standard issue (qjyap banned/mamamia banned, Xilver/yogurt left to their own off-classing devices but were dealt with much later after issue blew up)

 

So before everyone forgets, people are NOT okay with double standards.

 

They may not be vocal about it on this forum, but it exists.

 

Just saying.

 

Sure there are plenty of scenarios how off-classes can be made to work in a team which is made to play around those strategies.

 

Sure having an offclass is viable but you must have a team that plays around those strats. Masterful used to have the threat of panda as a full time spy and that worked out because we could go all out aggro on more cautious enemies. Im protects sheep really well but then he never fails to pick off targets..

 

You're right to say that offclassing at certain times is viable to mix the game up but do you think pug teams know how to adapt to it?worse is that news sitting in spec would try to replicate without understanding which is the cancer of most pugs these days. Sorry my phone is crap lol

 

I agree with Summer here.

 

PUGS mean different things to different players of different levels.

 

It is precisely because it is a random PUG team, with players of different skill levels, also with the lack of communication, that makes it close to impossible to pull off a TEAM strategy that revolves around certain off-class play.

 

Even with communication, simple team strategies can implode (I say this from personal experience).

 

In order for an off-class based strategy to work, even for a team of 6 that have been playing together constantly, a game plan must be devised and put into motion several times before the team can pull off said strategy and be effective.

 

I seriously doubt a PUG team without communication(or even with communication) can do that.

 

Your offclass is working, MORE because the enemy team is unable to counter you, and LESS because the class itself is viable.

 

It has more to do with the PLAYER than the CLASS.

 

Well, is this because offclasses are viable?

 

Maybe, but MORE because the player is able to make use of the offclassing effectively.

 

Now, in a scrim you can take these risks(if your team is in agreement) because your own team suffers the consequences of winning/losing.

 

You may trust the judgement call of your teammate to offclass pyro to middle because you know for a fact he has practiced airblasting in public servers and dodgeball servers to the extent he can minicrit airshot reflect soldiers 100 percent of the time.

 

That's all good, in a scrim.

In a pug, however, not everybody is agreeable to offclassing.

I don't trust this other guy running an offclass 24/7 because I don't have to.

 

I think if anything the argument should be whether or not PUGS should be the playground for experimentation and whether we are ready for experimentation at high level/low level pugs.

 

If the issue at hand is that offclassers who aren't good at that offclass insist on offclassing(yes that's a mouthful), then leave outrageous offclassing to SCRIMS and let teams willing to embrace extraordinary strategies deal with the consequences.

 

It seems like the prerequisite of making an off-class EFFECTIVE despite its liabilities of the lack of scout/roamer is TEAM strategy and accomodation in other aspects.

 

In that case, it requires a TEAM like communication and discussed tactics.

 

A pug, is no place for this. Teams are decided within 3-5 mins (thanks to afl plugin), and the game begins promptly.

 

Want to try new off-classing strategies that challenge the "stale" metagame?

 

Talk to your team about it, come up with a wonderful strategy, and do it in a scrim.

 

Let your own TEAMMATES bear the consequences.

 

Let's face it. If you're objective in off-classing is to TEST how it can work with a TEAM backing your off-classing strategy with an alternative game plan, then you NEED a SCRIM ENVIRONMENT to do so.

 

Doing it in a pug where you KNOW for a FACT your team is going to be made up of randoms just does NOT make the case for "testing out new meta-game with off-classing".

 

I know for a fact that off-classers to middle don't make ANY effort to tell their teammates to hang back, wait for his picks, ask for players to call medic/demoman locations, or ANYTHING.

 

If the argument is being made that it is possible for "off-classing strategies" to develop as long as there is teamwork in making the off-class effective, then ALL THE MORE these off-classing strategies CANNOT be implemented in PUGS because it is too difficult to achieve a baseline for teamwork where there is no voice communications, and players are possibly selected from a wide variety of skill levels.

 

Just in case some of you guys out there misunderstand, I'm not saying that I disagree with off-classing and that it should be disallowed on the whole.

 

What I'm saying is that there are specific reasons to off-class that pertain specifically to uber advantage or disadvantage, and off-classing during those situations are definitely acceptable.

 

However, I'm sure many of you have seen situations where your team has full uber advantage and is waiting to push in to last only to realize one of your respawning teammates came back as a sniper after suiciding for no reason.

 

Yes, we have ALL seen this in pugs.

 

don't let your unnecessary problems become everyone else's headache.

 

I may be taking this out of context abit, but I refer to unnecessary problems as "the need to run 24/7 offclasses".

 

Also I think it would be near ridiculous for AF to have a new policy of having a ticket to off-classing.

 

Off-classer : I am legit sniper.

Admin : where's your frag video? show me.

Off-classer : http://www.youtube.com/iamgodsniper

Admin : you sure that's you. prove it. STEAM id?

Off-classer : ...

 

That doesn't mean we should not regularly improve ourselves to be adaptive. The game is old enough as it is, so for us to make games continue to be interesting (since valve isn't doing much except making boxes for us to buy keys), new style of gameplay is probably the only option.

 

2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic MIGHT be stale gameplay for some of you veterans out there, but asiafortress is a community built to not only provide an environment for veterans to play, but also for newer players to learn about competitive play.

 

For newer players, 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic is a FRESH, NEW format to play within as opposed to the 9 class public server spam fest.

 

I think we need to look at asiafortress and TF2 as a game not only from a "i've played this game for so long and I'm bored" point of view, but also from the perspective of our community as a whole which includes all levels of players instead of just the elite players.

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Recognition and allowing for special rules to apply to special people who are recognized = double standard

 

Double standards make for drama and an unhappy community.

 

Of course life is unfair, double standards cannot be avoided, deal with it, blah blah blah (im anticipating rebuttal coming along these lines).

 

Not too long ago we've had sagas of this double standard issue (qjyap banned/mamamia banned, Xilver/yogurt left to their own off-classing devices)

 

The reason you don't see xilver, yoog and astatine around is because they were banned. For offclassing.

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The reason you don't see xilver, yoog and astatine around is because they were banned. For offclassing.

 

edited my post before you replied. They were dealt with AFTER the issue blew up. They were left alone for a good amount of time. I know because I was there.

 

Upon further recollection, I'm sure the veterans (not limited to the above mentioned 3 players) were having fun offclassing, especially when admins were not around or when admins were their friends and decided to let it slide.

 

When newer players who did not have such a relationship with admins started to offclass, they were punished immediately.

 

This was how the double standard issue was brought to light.

 

It was only after a flurry of forum posting that resulted in action taken against some(only a few) veterans.

 

A certain ex-admin running pyro to middle is an example not unknown to frequent puggers.

 

Just saying :D

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warning the languge i use very the explicit so if you have pointy ears ,whiskers, like fish and meows. then dont read further thanks

 

walaoso why so much debate on stupid issue....

if in a pug when u see people who off class regularly just treat it as though they are afk and its 5v6

 

sometimes your medic pick shit players in your team that are so bad which plays as though they are afk. don't be retarded about it

 

how do you deal with it? u just scold their mother then proceed to lose the match or try to carry then end of story new day new game. its not as though kicking them for being retarded is fair its not even their own fault for being born into this world as retard

 

as for using pug to experiment off classing is just plain retarded autally using pugs to experiment ANYTHING is retarded it only helps you for pugging if you really wana experiment to win just get a fix team and do it there wont be any bitching or what not

 

and k1 you say everyone whine and bitch when lose but so far your the only one who i seen whine everyone else just bitches.

 

tl:dr if you think off-class is ok in pugs, your retarded, if you think off-class is not ok in pugs, your retarded. if you scold their mom and then move on then your somewhat retarded but not so.

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as for using pug to experiment off classing is just plain retarded autally using pugs to experiment ANYTHING is retarded it only helps you for pugging if you really wana experiment to win just get a fix team and do it there wont be any bitching or what not

 

also it helps to click on face and not on walls!

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tl:dr if you think off-class is ok in pugs, your retarded, if you think off-class is not ok in pugs, your retarded. if you scold their mom and then move on then your somewhat retarded but not so.

 

Basically everyone is retarded. :blink:

 

Anyway,this is just my opinion. I haven't put in as much hours into this game as most of you have but I I think the main issue of trying to work with an off-classer in your team in pugs is that they forgot that as an offclass, they're still suppose to contribute to the team

 

. Snipers and spies are ideally to get key picks such as demo or medic that could help greatly in pushes or stalemates, not just trying to heashot every single person that you can see or backstab that scout because he was the closes to you when their medic is just 5m away. If their mindset is just to headshot anything as long as its a headshot, then it wouldnt help the team greatly (unless you are able to headshot 5 people in a row and then cap last as sniper)

 

Also, the lack of communication also makes playing with an offclass in the team harder sometimes.

 

Even if the blue sniper got a key pick, it would be useless if the rest of blue team is playing far back due to uber disadvantage or 1 man down (especially as demo or medic) and were not able to play off the pick as they were too far away. You don't expect to just suicide in without any reason only to come back as sniper when your team actually needed you on scout or roamer because no one said shit about what to do or what's the game plan.

 

tl:dr If offclass, contribute to the team as they depend on you for making plays. Communication is key to teamwork which is vital in playing around an offclass.

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Double standards have been around all along regardless whether on off-classing, picking or even making your own team specifically for a Division. People make choices to their own emotions. Who wouldn't want to be with the better players in pug or tournament? Who doesn't want to make big plays with the available 9 classes? Each to his own. You're specifically targeting off-classing because it poses as an issue to people, yet most of the arguments come from people that don't consistently pug. :)

 

Pugs happen daily because people lack an opportunity to scrim with a busy work life or similar, everyone has their own schedules. If you want a scrim to happen everyday, you're in the wrong neighbourhood. Ask yourself, how many scrims do you play per week with your team in AF? Where is your team now?

 

You speak of governments and their rules to keep peace among the majority, but this isn't a country. This is a bunch of gamers with an outrageous addiction to a game who wants to play during their free time and enjoy different views of it. Do you play a FPS game to see the same weapon everyday? Why do games like Battlefield 4 (HYPE TRAIN PLS) have a level system to attract players to improve and get new/upgraded weapons quicker? To me, it is all about reaching the next level of play. If I feel I've peaked in a class, and my next interest happens to be a utility, I'll probably never see the possibilities of playing that class here. #fml

 

You say players lack communication to discuss simple team strategies? I'm afraid that people just aren't using the available option here. !MUMBLE in any AF server pls. Lacking of voice communication is the last thing here. Multiple guides for settings to in-game or mumble has been up for ages.

 

This is why people aren't improving, they aren't experiencing enough team plays already. They are given access to various tools that allow TEAMPLAY. Instead of enforcing those, we want to dictate how people should play during daily pugs. Limiting players to specific classes, unable to relate viable styles which they may have accomplished elsewhere.

 

There is no game plan required to perform these so called "off-class strategies", a player with a knowledge of how any class works would know how to utilise it for the team. That player, multiplied by 6, would be a team. If you're playing in a pug without the basics of the 9 available classes, kindly get the fuck out please. :)

 

So what I infer from your view (Azazel) is that, pug is not a place for people of different skill levels to work as a team. This means everyone can play Solo Fortress 2 during pugs? I'm not sure if I ever won that game. If it is that hard to work as a team just because you're with people you do not know at that very moment, your work life is going to be MISERABLE. Sometimes no one wants to work with others, and pugs may be a way to chill and kill time or whatever. Every once in a while we encounter those.

 

Specific veterans who continuously off-class during pugs should obviously be dealt with after stern warnings. However, there are some veterans who prefer to open up the game and not let pugs look like a stomp whenever they are around. It makes pugs totally meaningless for newcomers. What they learnt is a quick match of the difference in skill level. So with that said, should veterans never be allowed to play pugs?

 

Personally, every pug I've gone to these days is a stomp. (not even trying to show off here, my demo list is taking up to 4GB)

 

If your argument is still on the fact that our community isn't capable of this, then when? Are we really intending to be at the bottom of TF2 globally? (insert okay.jpg here)

 

@Aycan Whining may be more informative than bitching. Not saying that either of them is correct, but at the very least I point out people's mistakes instead of talking about their moms :)

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Double standards have been around all along regardless whether on off-classing, picking or even making your own team specifically for a Division. People make choices to their own emotions. Who wouldn't want to be with the better players in pug or tournament? Who doesn't want to make big plays with the available 9 classes? Each to his own. You're specifically targeting off-classing because it poses as an issue to people, yet most of the arguments come from people that don't consistently pug. :)/> Pugs happen daily because people lack an opportunity to scrim with a busy work life or similar, everyone has their own schedules. If you want a scrim to happen everyday, you're in the wrong neighbourhood. Ask yourself, how many scrims do you play per week with your team in AF? Where is your team now? You speak of governments and their rules to keep peace among the majority, but this isn't a country. This is a bunch of gamers with an outrageous addiction to a game who wants to play during their free time and enjoy different views of it. Do you play a FPS game to see the same weapon everyday? Why do games like Battlefield 4 (HYPE TRAIN PLS) have a level system to attract players to improve and get new/upgraded weapons quicker? To me, it is all about reaching the next level of play. If I feel I've peaked in a class, and my next interest happens to be a utility, I'll probably never see the possibilities of playing that class here. #fml You say players lack communication to discuss simple team strategies? I'm afraid that people just aren't using the available option here. !MUMBLE in any AF server pls. Lacking of voice communication is the last thing here. Multiple guides for settings to in-game or mumble has been up for ages. This is why people aren't improving, they aren't experiencing enough team plays already. They are given access to various tools that allow TEAMPLAY. Instead of enforcing those, we want to dictate how people should play during daily pugs. Limiting players to specific classes, unable to relate viable styles which they may have accomplished elsewhere. There is no game plan required to perform these so called "off-class strategies", a player with a knowledge of how any class works would know how to utilise it for the team. That player, multiplied by 6, would be a team. If you're playing in a pug without the basics of the 9 available classes, kindly get the fuck out please. :)/> So what I infer from your view (Azazel) is that, pug is not a place for people of different skill levels to work as a team. This means everyone can play Solo Fortress 2 during pugs? I'm not sure if I ever won that game. If it is that hard to work as a team just because you're with people you do not know at that very moment, your work life is going to be MISERABLE. Sometimes no one wants to work with others, and pugs may be a way to chill and kill time or whatever. Every once in a while we encounter those. Specific veterans who continuously off-class during pugs should obviously be dealt with after stern warnings. However, there are some veterans who prefer to open up the game and not let pugs look like a stomp whenever they are around. It makes pugs totally meaningless for newcomers. What they learnt is a quick match of the difference in skill level. So with that said, should veterans never be allowed to play pugs? Personally, every pug I've gone to these days is a stomp. (not even trying to show off here, my demo list is taking up to 4GB) If your argument is still on the fact that our community isn't capable of this, then when? Are we really intending to be at the bottom of TF2 globally? (insert okay.jpg here) @Aycan Whining may be more informative than bitching. Not saying that either of them is correct, but at the very least I point out people's mistakes instead of talking about their moms :)/>

 

The way you put across your points is intimidating but honest. scary.

 

I think ultimately, offclassing is up to the team's discretion. If they're ok with it, fine. If they're not, just tell the guy nicely to go back to their original class once they can as their offclass isn't helping much. It's also up to the offclasser's goodwill and attitude to inform their team of their offclassing and to switch back to their original class if not contributing much. If the offclasser wishes to practice their utility extensively e.g sniper during, maybe it would be greatly appreciated if he/she inform the team first before doing so.

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Double standards have been around all along regardless whether on off-classing, picking or even making your own team specifically for a Division.

Anticipated this being brought up, and I agree. No argument here.

Pugs happen daily because people lack an opportunity to scrim with a busy work life or similar, everyone has their own schedules. If you want a scrim to happen everyday, you're in the wrong neighbourhood.

Pugs happen daily regardless of whether people lack an opportunity to scrim.

There are plenty of puggers with no teams and thus no opportunity to scrim whatsoever.

Also, players with teams will find time in their busy work/school schedules to participate in scrims/matches during AFC/merc cup/competition period.

It all boils down to how bad you want to play as a team.

It's not anybody's fault other than yours if you are unable to find scrims.

Being the elite player who has peaked at his class, I'm sure you will be able to find scrims to play.

It is people like myself, who still have much to learn, who has to worry about being able to find a team.

 

I am getting fat. It takes 30 minutes to have a good run(roughly how long it takes for 1 map). I have 24 hours a day. I used to tell myself "Where got time to run?". Do you?

 

Get to running fatties!

 

That aside, not being able to scrim because there are X difficulties does not justify opening the floodgates on off-classing in PUG servers anyhow.

 

You speak of governments and their rules to keep peace among the majority, but this isn't a country.

Governments do not pertain specifically to countries, but also to organizations. I think it is not a stretch to term asiafortress as an organization and a community.

To me, it is all about reaching the next level of play. If I feel I've peaked in a class, and my next interest happens to be a utility, I'll probably never see the possibilities of playing that class here. #fml

That doesn't mean we should not regularly improve ourselves to be adaptive. The game is old enough as it is, so for us to make games continue to be interesting (since valve isn't doing much except making boxes for us to buy keys), new style of gameplay is probably the only option.

There is no game plan required to perform these so called "off-class strategies", a player with a knowledge of how any class works would know how to utilise it for the team. That player, multiplied by 6, would be a team. If you're playing in a pug without the basics of the 9 available classes, kindly get the fuck out please. :)

You might not have intended it so, but it seems as though if off-classing is not allowed in asiafortress servers...

 

YOU will not be able to reach the next level of play, because YOU'VE peaked in a class, and YOUR interest happens to be a utility.

YOU find the meta-game boring and YOU wish for games to continue to be interesting.

Correct me if i'm wrong, because this sounds like an incredibly self-centered, egocentric and elitist perspective.

I refer once again, to what I've quoted time and time again because nobody reads my lengthy posts:

2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic MIGHT be stale gameplay for some of you veterans out there, but asiafortress is a community built to not only provide an environment for veterans to play, but also for newer players to learn about competitive play.

For newer players, 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic is a FRESH, NEW format to play within as opposed to the 9 class public server spam fest.

It seems as though you're leaving the bulk of my argument out of your rebuttal, and instead infer(conjure up) various irrelevant tangents that truly confound me.

Here are some examples:

So what I infer from your view (Azazel) is that, pug is not a place for people of different skill levels to work as a team. This means everyone can play Solo Fortress 2 during pugs?

What they learnt is a quick match of the difference in skill level. So with that said, should veterans never be allowed to play pugs?

If your argument is still on the fact that our community isn't capable of this, then when? Are we really intending to be at the bottom of TF2 globally? (insert okay.jpg here)

 

If you can't infer, please don't infer. Don't do a Shounic.

People in PUGS are unable to work together as a team because there is a lack of communication(even though !mumble and voice chat exists) and teams will almost never be consistently skilled and even if consistently skilled teamwork will never be at the level of scrimmage (That's the way pick up games will always be in any team game)

 

f1-not-equal-sign.jpg

 

So what I infer from your view (Azazel) is that, pug is not a place for people of different skill levels to work as a team. This means everyone can play Solo Fortress 2 during pugs?

I hate to say learn to read... but dude :o

 

Also, no... nobody has said anything about veterans not being able to play pugs...

Just that veterans should not be off-classing blatantly, 24/7 or not, when situations demand for a soldier/scout instead, thinking they can get away with it.

 

Unlike you, i give credit where credit is due and I recognize that you agree with this notion.

Specific veterans who continuously off-class during pugs should obviously be dealt with after stern warnings.

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You say players lack communication to discuss simple team strategies? I'm afraid that people just aren't using the available option here. !MUMBLE in any AF server pls. Lacking of voice communication is the last thing here.

 

Okay let's take a look at this.

 

Yes, players lack communication in simple team strategies BECAUSE they aren't using the available option.

 

DUH. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

 

However, lacking of voice communication is NOT the last thing here.

If anything, it is the FIRST and MOST important thing.

 

Team Fortress 2, not Solo Fortress 2(in your own words), and thus communication is what forms the basis of that notion.

 

Instead of enforcing those, we want to dictate how people should play during daily pugs. Limiting players to specific classes, unable to relate viable styles which they may have accomplished elsewhere.

Okay here is where I wish to point out a major concern.

 

Allow me to rephrase your quote: Since we have not yet enforced strict voice communications in teams to allow for more teamwork, how can we dictate how people play during daily pugs?

 

Take a moment. Read this. Soak it in. How does this make ANY sense?

 

Since an earlier rule was not properly enforced... how can we enforce this rule pertaining to offclassing now?

 

HUH?!

 

mind_fucking____by_mynameyourmom-d475kb4.jpg

 

If your argument is still on the fact that our community isn't capable of this, then when? Are we really intending to be at the bottom of TF2 globally? (insert okay.jpg here)

I propose for us to consider the converse. If off-classing is allowed in its entirety and there are no restrictions, will this then boost us up up and away from the bottom of global tf2?

 

I think what this directly affects, is that

YOU will be able to reach the next level of play, because YOUR interest happens to be a utility.

YOU will find the meta-game interesting now.

Just quoting you directly and not deducing/infering/conjuring anything.

 

Should we not maintain an environment that is encouraging of our new players to learn the fundamental cookie cutter classes of tf2 in ASIAFORTRESS pugs first, before they move into their respective teams to experiment with off-classes and make that frag video he/she was talking about, because ASIAFORTRESS pug servers are for a community of players, and not just for the elite few?

 

Whining may be more informative than bitching. Not saying that either of them is correct, but at the very least I point out people's mistakes instead of talking about their moms :)

 

This post is excruciatingly long because there were plenty of mistakes being pointed out.

 

No mothers were insulted in the process of creating this wall of text.

 

Cheers to the off-classing discourse!

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Honestly the issue is that everyone has different expectations out of pugs. Nobody's right or wrong but in the end we should just settle this by asking the highest of power how he wants pugs to run. Hcaz?

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Here's how I've felt about your posts so far. I think YOU (Azazel) are not comprehending the current situation at hand. People ARE playing off-classes because it's part of the game. However, others aren't able to cope with an off-class in the team, or unsure of how to play against it.

 

Let us begin talking about some classes here, considering all are played by the same person who has peaked in the different classes.

  • A scout who does huge damages but has to make melee battles with other classes .
  • A soldier who does explosive damage but has to damage himself to make swift movements across the air.
  • A sniper who stays at a distance, able to headshot efficiently but unable to make quick movements.
  • A spy taking advantage of chaos and putting a knife behind someone's back, but can be easily countered through sound/vision.

Not going to list every class, but I'm looking at these options, and I think a team could use one of each. And I would be glad to have a sniper putting bullets in faces while I'm in the front line, similarly to other classes depending on their gameplay. Obviously, no one knows what classes are the best for all situations. This all comes down to the player handling not only the class, but also the situation. He/She also should bear all consequences should the outcome turns ill.

 

You say it is their problem that they don't have time to find scrims because busy with life etc. So here we discuss about helping people out with only cookie cutter classes during pugs, what about the rest of the classes? Does it really boils down to how bad you want to play as a team to get scrims for REAL match experience? Are we able to get scrims that easily in this community? Same question as my previous reply, how many scrims do you even play per week in AF? Why did you join an Australian team then? When you went to join an Australian team, how dedicated were they to finding scrims even in Division 2? This is the hard truth and you know it, those commitments don't exist HERE. Aussie scene provides regular scrims 3 days per week, try doing that with teams in AF lol.

 

You were a mentee on my list, and you barely knew how to deal with "cookie cutter", not even going to talk about off-classes. You approach other options besides AF to play/learn the game. Do you perhaps feel that this community has nothing left to offer? Why do other scenes seem more dominant in quality of players? Maybe because they are able to afford scrim time every few days?

 

Well, we don't have time like you mentioned. You don't even have time to make a run, and you want to make time for scrims with 11 others at specific hours when everyone is free?

That sounds like a problem you want to solve by saying:

"It all boils down to how much you want to play in a team." Shit if it were that easy, I'm probably a volcano with boiling magma inside me by now. Perhaps ditching my girlfriend, not spending time with my family and skipping work/studies so I can be playing video games? Not everyone has the capability to commit a specific timing to scrim. Fixing a schedule for 6 people isn't easy, least to say 12.

 

So here's my solution:

Why not spend the time during pugs to learn not just "cookie cutter", but also teamplay along with other classes? I don't think everyone's absorption rate is that low, especially from someone like yourself, coming up with all these pictures and colors to a thread discussed only by a dozen. Picking up more than 4 classes during pugs doesn't sound that hard considering there are only 5 more others.

 

Is mumble up and running 24/7? Yeah, only if there was a chick then I'll hop on. ;) JK~

Is voice in-game available in all servers? Pretty sure it is.

 

Your comprehension here is a failure, you summarised the paragraph into one sentence. When I said lacking of voice communication being the last thing to worry about, I meant the options that allow voice comms are always available. Obviously if someone were to mention teamplay along with the lines of communication, do you think anyone would believe those aren't equally important?! I even referred !mumble being the crucial key to communications.

 

This is because you kept claiming that people aren't properly discussing their games to allow teamplay in pugs. People just don't see the need to use these. Then why did an admin set up mumble for? Asiafortress Pug, Blu, Red, Spec. Empty most of the time during pugs. Maybe they have their own channels, but I'm sure newcomers don't. Perhaps most of them use in-game that's fine too, assuming though.

 

Again you failed to understand what I was putting through in my previous post and just summarising into this sentenace: "Instead of enforcing those, we want to dictate how people should play during daily pugs. Limiting players to specific classes, unable to relate viable styles which they may have accomplished elsewhere." I'm going to put this so simple for you, so you read the following paragraph instead of thinking too hard into my reply earlier k?

 

Off-classing is out of the option if teamplay isn't possible, teamplay isn't possible without communications. But hey, we have communications(mumble/in-game), we can make teamplay. Then BOOM, off-classing is now viable?! But since we aren't making comms a requirement, we should just ban all other actions that probably needs teamplay, and teamplay needs comms. Okie dokie?

 

A scout should know not to suicide into an entire team. A pocket should not jump away from his medic. Each and every play relies on team communications with reasons. All these plays still happen in pugs but always overlooked if successful, why can't off-classing be the same? Isn't bringing out a spy trying to kill medic but failed, as good as a roamer jumping in and fail? It may look easier to run that core 6, but let's not deprive players of other options.

 

Quote "People in PUGS are unable to work together as a team because there is a lack of communication(even though !mumble and voice chat exists) and teams will almost never be consistently skilled and even if consistently skilled teamwork will never be at the level of scrimmage (That's the way pick up games will always be in any team game)"

So what if pug teams are never consistently skilled? What does it have to do with coming up with teamplays? Are players not supposed to treat each other as teammates in pugs? When I joined your Australian team, din't I treat you guys as teammates on the first day? Teamwork can't be at the same level on the first meet according to you, but we dominated and topped the scoreboard against full teams. Was it hard? Din't felt like it for me. I was even playing off-class sometimes.

 

So what if communication during pugs is not on the level of teams in scrims? Is it necessary for a team to be fully communicative to achieve teamplay? I wonder how those Korean/Taiwanese/Japanese/Hongkong mix teams are doing in OUR AFC.

 

You have proven ONCE AGAIN that I haven't inferred wrongly, that you still believe pugs is not a place for teamplay to happen, continuously saying that people of different skill levels aren't able to work together and I severely disagree. From everything you've mentioned, pick up games do not have sufficient teamwork. But this only reflects on the players' capabilities to work as a team, and if you're saying its impossible for AF to achieve such pugs, that goes to show your view of AF pug players. I'm not satisfied with this kind of pugs in our community.

 

The focus on people PLAYING THE GAME not to specific rules, and not something like making TEAMPLAYS MORE EFFECTIVE, through voice comms in this case, is much more troubling to me. You're disallowing players to play a part of the game, because pugs aren't capable of handling it. So when the time arises and they play matches say AFC, they may have to deal with said classes, or probably highlander. Which part of their TF2 experiences are they going to use to figure out how to play with or against them? Public servers? Work experiences? lol?

 

In a recent scrim I played, a local team(formed recently and barely scrims) vs another local mix team. It was a stomp with voice comms available for both. We ran spy, sniper, pyro and mess around like idiots. A skill level difference? Most likely. But even when we're off-classing like crazy, there should be at least a fighting chance, right? Not one bit to me. My team doesn't even remember what was the purpose of that scrim.

 

I've always wanted to know, What have you guys learnt from pugs? Is it enough to play in a scrim? Why do local teams struggle to play against a mix team of foreigners? Why aren't our mix teams as strong as other regions? Do we lack talent? "SINGAPORE NO TALENT NEED MORE FT PREASE"

 

Yes, I am an elitist, I do not deny that because that's how I got myself here today. Since gaming is my interest/hobby, I play every game to perfection whether FPS, MMORPGs or RTS. You want to define me in my wall of text that's fine too. Since this is about the community and the situation as it is from my view and mine only. But try to stay relevant to topic, it ain't all about me. If I wanted to snipe, I would just do it and get myself banned because honestly, after leaving and coming back to AF, you will realise that this community is growing at the slowest rate possible. Depressing for me, and I feel for the admins, not even sure if they feel worthwhile doing these, I applaud them for their effort. And since Natapon is a great friend IRL, I chose to come back to this game, enjoy myself while helping others out.

 

I don't believe that everyone follows me regarding this off-class matter, but I'm pretty sure everyone wants to improve. If players want to learn how to play a class, public servers will be a great option. But to learn about a class in a match scenario, leaving it to scrims only is not going to be near enough. Playing a game daily but not able to experience all aspects of it isn't going to benefit anyone.

 

Your argument to this is merely giving the majority an easier time in pugs. Will they improve? Sure, playing a scrim per week and absorb what they can from pugs, or look for a mentor. Probably only the first will apply to most when pugs, as they are now, can only do so much. And people are too "shy" to look for available mentors. (/wave) Even with available mentors, they don't ask for more help beyond the first few questions. /facepalm

 

As much as you're trying to be logical and helpful, if you think I'm arguing for the Elite Four (Got to catch' em all!) only, you're quite wrong. My current mentees have no scrim footage and relies solely on pugs for experiences. I feel sorry for them when they told me their last scrim was close to 2months back.

 

I'm looking forward to helping everyone as a whole, and by allowing off-class to players who can abuse them well, it can significantly improve someone's playstyle. Agree or disagree? Your own preference.

 

Quote "I propose for us to consider the converse. If off-classing is allowed in its entirety and there are no restrictions, will this then boost us up up and away from the bottom of global tf2?" Since when is taking a step going to bring you to heaven? I hope you aren't that naive. But I'm glad that you can agree on the fact that we're at the bottom of the TF2 scene.

Progress is everything in development. Are you helping out with the community? Have you seen the improvements of players from few years back? Lets be honest, I barely see any. The same players are at lower divisions, the number of new players aren't even enough to replace the veterans that left. Certain veterans lost interest and their skills dropped tremendously.

 

I've seen a couple of newcomers playing off-classes recently, and they are doing better than their teammates. This isn't saying the score is better or they have more kills. They are doing their job but the teams lost because they couldn't comprehend the situation around those off-classes. Of course, some got flamed as pug spoilers, others believe it was a difference in skill levels between the teams. If they all had a larger perspective of the game, which includes knowing those off-classes, those pugs would have gone way differently.

 

Pugs, as it is now, and weekly scrims aren't going to be enough to get anyone close to Division 1, this is MY sincere opinion. Also, if you aren't striving to be in Division 1, I don't know how else to help you. Protecting newcomers and keeping the community peaceful through rules in pugs? I think you have no idea how rules have 0 effect on pugs already.

 

I don't even know what you people are arguing about, it is as though off-classing (playing the game) is a bad thing, like turning on a lamp in a lighted room. What's the difference if admins kick/ban someone abusing off-class whether the rule is around or not? Needless off-classing is still going to happen regardless. Either totally remove the rule and deal with trolls only, or start banishing people who are enjoying the game, not following these rules you deem necessary.

 

So rephrase with an understanding of what I had written as a whole, instead of taking chunks out to your liking because you should learn to read everything, not learn to read only. I'm pretty sure I'm not into literature, and this seems like basic English even to those taking as 2nd or 3rd language.

 

TL;DR In a week, an average player (from our community) plays 5 pugs to 1 scrim. We should not limit what people can learn during pugs just because some trolls are abusing off-classes. This is where admins come in to deal with them.

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I personally feel that this debate has gone to no where since our interference, it is barely helping to see the light at the end of this tunnel after reading all that has been discussed. This shall be my last post regarding this topic, I'll leave the decision to the ones in charge.

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Some people have a certain skillset: interpreting an argument from walls of text and then being able to express his/her opinions in a coherent format and contributing to a discussion that is constructive while being objective.

 

That is obviously NOT your skillset.

 

Don't throw big words around that you can't handle.

 

You should stick to clicking on people in video games.

 

Here's how I've felt about your posts so far. I think YOU (Azazel) are not comprehending the current situation at hand. People ARE playing off-classes because it's part of the game. However, others aren't able to cope with an off-class in the team, or unsure of how to play against it.

Let us begin talking about some classes here, considering all are played by the same person who has peaked in the different classes.

Not going to list every class, but I'm looking at these options, and I think a team could use one of each. And I would be glad to have a sniper putting bullets in faces while I'm in the front line, similarly to other classes depending on their gameplay. Obviously, no one knows what classes are the best for all situations. This all comes down to the player handling not only the class, but also the situation. He/She also should bear all consequences should the outcome turns ill.

 

No. You are NOT comprehending Summer, Aycan, or myself at all. What is the current situation at hand?

 

The current situation is... and since you fail to comprehend I shall explain further...

 

There is a difference between situational and 24/7 off-classing, and 24/7 offclassing can hurt the team more than benefit it, especially since pugs lack communication, a consistent skill level, and thus teamwork.

 

Sure having an offclass is viable but you must have a team that plays around those strats. Masterful used to have the threat of panda as a full time spy and that worked out because we could go all out aggro on more cautious enemies. Im protects sheep really well but then he never fails to pick off targets..

You're right to say that offclassing at certain times is viable to mix the game up but do you think pug teams know how to adapt to it?worse is that news sitting in spec would try to replicate without understanding which is the cancer of most pugs these days. Sorry my phone is crap lol

as for using pug to experiment off classing is just plain retarded autally using pugs to experiment ANYTHING is retarded it only helps you for pugging if you really wana experiment to win just get a fix team and do it there wont be any bitching or what not

I highly suspect that you are reading any of the posts in this thread before posting your own and claiming that others do not comprehend you.

You can list 101 what-if situations on how a team can play around an off-class.

WE AGREE THAT IT MIGHT WORK.

WE DISAGREE THAT THIS SHOULD BE DONE IN PUGS.

Address that and stop reiterating yourself.

 

You say it is their problem that they don't have time to find scrims because busy with life etc. So here we discuss about helping people out with only cookie cutter classes during pugs, what about the rest of the classes? Does it really boils down to how bad you want to play as a team to get scrims for REAL match experience? Are we able to get scrims that easily in this community? Same question as my previous reply, how many scrims do you even play per week in AF? Why did you join an Australian team then? When you went to join an Australian team, how dedicated were they to finding scrims even in Division 2? This is the hard truth and you know it, those commitments don't exist HERE. Aussie scene provides regular scrims 3 days per week, try doing that with teams in AF lol.

You were a mentee on my list, and you barely knew how to deal with "cookie cutter", not even going to talk about off-classes. You approach other options besides AF to play/learn the game. Do you perhaps feel that this community has nothing left to offer? Why do other scenes seem more dominant in quality of players? Maybe because they are able to afford scrim time every few days?

Scrims are hard to find because your team is not commited and that is a problem, I understand.

Aus scene/other scenes are more active, I understand.

Is this then relevant to how we should allow/disallow anything in pugs?

NO.

PS. there is a difference between wanting different perspectives on the game and "feeling this community has nothing left to offer".

That sounds like a problem you want to solve by saying:

"It all boils down to how much you want to play in a team." Shit if it were that easy, I'm probably a volcano with boiling magma inside me by now. Perhaps ditching my girlfriend, not spending time with my family and skipping work/studies so I can be playing video games? Not everyone has the capability to commit a specific timing to scrim. Fixing a schedule for 6 people isn't easy, least to say 12.

Huh. Aus scene can do it. Global scenes can do it. If anything, the lack of scrimmage in our community is what is, in your own words, causing us to be at the "bottom of global tf2".

If the rest of the world can do it without "ditching their girlfriends, not spending time with family and skipping work/studies", then why not you?

You special?

So here's my solution:

Why not spend the time during pugs to learn not just "cookie cutter", but also teamplay along with other classes? I don't think everyone's absorption rate is that low, especially from someone like yourself, coming up with all these pictures and colors to a thread discussed only by a dozen. Picking up more than 4 classes during pugs doesn't sound that hard considering there are only 5 more others.

One thing at a time. One class is already giving me trouble. I am no genius, and I also speak on behalf of possible new players in the scene.

Also, this is no solution to the problem of having no time for scrims.

 

Don't do a Shounic.

 

It's as if allowing 24/7 off-classing in PUGS are a SOLUTION for your inability to find SCRIMS to offclassing 24/7.

 

Our priority here is not YOUR scrims, its OUR pugs.

 

Keep that in mind.

 

Your 5 teammates should not suffer the consequences of your bad off-classing while they are trying their best to win a game.

 

Not every sniper is "fabulous", and to open this box is to unleash Pandora's jewels upon the world.

 

Do it with your team.

 

Teams were scrimming weekly or even more during AFC season, just in case you didn't know.

 

 

Is mumble up and running 24/7? Yeah, only if there was a chick then I'll hop on. ;) JK~

Is voice in-game available in all servers? Pretty sure it is.

Your comprehension here is a failure, you summarised the paragraph into one sentence. When I said lacking of voice communication being the last thing to worry about, I meant the options that allow voice comms are always available. Obviously if someone were to mention teamplay along with the lines of communication, do you think anyone would believe those aren't equally important?! I even referred !mumble being the crucial key to communications.

Sorry, your word choice can prove challenging for most to begin the process of intrepretation.

I apologize.

 

motivator00486810542e2c308eb57d7f5c792fe071637de5.jpg

 

BUT SERIOUSLY NOW....

 

How could this:

Lacking of voice communication is the last thing here.

not have been misleading?

 

People don't comprehend you because you are incomprehensible.

 

I'm going to put this so simple for you, so you read the following paragraph instead of thinking too hard into my reply earlier k?

Off-classing is out of the option if teamplay isn't possible, teamplay isn't possible without communications. But hey, we have communications(mumble/in-game), we can make teamplay. Then BOOM, off-classing is now viable?! But since we aren't making comms a requirement, we should just ban all other actions that probably needs teamplay, and teamplay needs comms. Okie dokie?

I'm sure you already know, but off-classing is also "out of the option" because it hurts the team in the opportunity cost of changing from soldier/scout to particular offclass.

Communication is the way a team will bend over backwards to make that off-class work in a scrim situation.

I refer to Summer's post regarding how cookie cutter classes are most effective from 2007-present day.

Also, my response to your quote was mostly based off how the failure of enforcing an earlier rule, is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a new rule should be enforced.

 

Quote "People in PUGS are unable to work together as a team because there is a lack of communication(even though !mumble and voice chat exists) and teams will almost never be consistently skilled and even if consistently skilled teamwork will never be at the level of scrimmage (That's the way pick up games will always be in any team game)"

So what if pug teams are never consistently skilled? What does it have to do with coming up with teamplays? Are players not supposed to treat each other as teammates in pugs?

So what if communication during pugs is not on the level of teams in scrims? Is it necessary for a team to be fully communicative to achieve teamplay? I wonder how those Korean/Taiwanese/Japanese/Hongkong mix teams are doing in OUR AFC.

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