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Morgan

For The Sake Of Sanity

For the Sake of Sanity  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. Give Admins Back Their Powers



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Okay, so are you claiming that players who offclass to mid are merely trying out new strats?

 

No, read carefully, emotionlessly and objectively in order to avoid committing the strawman fallacy.

 

Is it up to the admins, then, who at their own discretion determine what is blatant trolling/griefing?

 

Yes, I have addressed this in my post as well has the previous two threads some time back regarding offclassing + admin abuse (that they should approach situations politely with room for error/understanding). I stress again that 'one's discretion' is a very stretchy and hard to gauge term, hence, we must slowly learn to pick correct admins.

 

First, the blatant trolls in question do NOT get warned whatsoever and can go on for rounds on end never ever joining a cookie cutter class.

Personally, I am usually okay with offclassing- pro or noob, annoying fuck or well behaved player. So I do not speak up- I do speak up when I feel someone has crossed the line. (my personal feeling, ie at my 'discretion'). It is not the job of admins to mind-read whenever someone feels uncomfortable with any instance of offclass/trolling. Voice it out if you have issues, again, this was mentioned in my post.

 

Second, what is the point of trying out "new metagame strats" if it's a roll?

There is a point for me. I can tell. Others probably can. I'm not going to explain this.

 

I'm saying giving them their powers back will greatly compound the double standards rampant on the topic of off-classing and "trolling".

Your valid opinion. Please construct all your future posts around further explaining and pushing this argument. So far you have given no example on why having admins will greatly compound the issue. Which is further puzzling because you have posted this:

 

The policemen are not removed. They just have the ability to kill by their own discretion and standards removed.

(This is the system that is already in place, but you have voted to remove 'policemen' entirely.)

 

...

 

Anyway I'm done repeating myself. I strongly encourage anyone posting to make sure you fully avoid logical fallacies.

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@caldoran

To prove that I am neutral let me fuck puzzled up for you:

 

TO MORGAN:

You claim that our admins must be like policemen who are the arm of the law, they act in accordance of the law (when x is a crime, and y is illegal) and not arrest people they don't like (personal whim).

 

The problem with OUR admins (like that douchebag puzzled and mm too) is that they act out of accordance to the 'law' (the law is that: needless offclassing is a bannable offense). Now you can take this angle two ways; you can choose to blame the personality of our admins (but you have to name names in order to do so) that specifically SOMEONE is bending the rules to suit his personal whim (who he likes and who he does not like) or you can choose to blame the rule (for being too unspecific and vulnerable to misinterpretation).

 

The ball is in your court now, but if you criticize a person, make sure you can do better. And if you criticize a rule, suggest something else in place. Either way, this is a proper argument (one that I do not support ok, i have full trust in our rules and admins. I post this purely for the sake of debate).

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I think the answer is pretty clear. Let responsible admins have kick powers, and remove it from those who mis-use it.

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I think the answer is pretty clear. Let responsible admins have kick powers, and remove it from those who mis-use it.

 

YOU'RE BLAMING THE IRRESPONSIBLE ADMINS FOR THEIR INADEQUACY?

 

 

 

j/k man, what he said

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how would you decide who is responsible with the immense different of perspective and opinion. nata/spammah be the ones to pick?

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how would you decide who is responsible with the immense different of perspective and opinion. nata/spammah be the ones to pick?

 

that's not part of the debate at hand, but nata [ and spammah ] should be the one(s) to decide.

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@caldoran

 

to prove that i too am neutral

 

you goon of a admin mm who knows nothing about paintball or other worldly pleasures. I do not think our rules are too unspecific or vulnerable.

 

Lets take one sensitive rule in particular into consideration. When penalizing unnecessary offclassing I have always been an advocate of the " if someone complains please stop " rule. The problem with this rule is not that old players get preferential treatment, its that no one dares to speak up against old players. Like you yourself have stated MM, if someone complains of the offclassing of another in front of me I would not hesitate to warn them no matter who the perpetrator might be. In fact I have been involved in many such cases and have made many enemies because of my outstanding morals ( THE XILVER SAGA ).

 

=From here onward the involvement of MM ends=

 

Here lies the crux of the issue. No one dares to speak out against Brandon for example but everyone dares to scold qjyap. So if you are unhappy about some players receiving special treatment then BE A MAN ABOUT IT AND SPEAK UP. Don't hide like a coward and complain about the system when you do not dare to speak up and name names.

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Ok, taking the time off to chill and carefully reconsidering my stance has led to what I'm about to say.

 

First, yes, it is in fact very strange to me that admins do not have the powers to kick/ban. It is however not the concept of admins being able to kick or ban but the current culture of admins being as it is that makes me hesitate.

 

The past year or two where I have pugged on and off has shown me the blatant biasedness towards the more popular/respected players and quite honestly it irks me greatly.

 

But that's not the point of the thread. So to address the thread, I am hesitant to give my "yes" vote towards the poll because I have seen literally zero action taken against the offending "trolls" who happen to be well-liked/revered in the community, and that undermines my confidence in once again allowing all admins to kick/ban at their own whim.

 

To cite an example, let us say Person A is a new guy. He (or she) has seen some clips before on Youtube of Pyros in 6v6. Perhaps a montage or frag clip showcasing such. This leads him (or her) to believe that the Pyro is fully viable at all times, and/or does not understand the concept of generalists vs specialists in the TF2 metagame, and thus decides to run Pyro in his/her first 6v6 game.

 

Come rollout, without saying a word about his/her intentions, and off we go to an extremely obvious Pyro to mid.

 

I don't think I'd be presumptuous to say the following would be heard in voice/text chat:

"fuking nub"

"wtf pyro are you trolling"

 

And say, after mid is lost, an admin on the new player's side decides to speak up.

"Stop offclassing needlessly"

Would be a generally polite one.

 

In the mess of all the chat and mic clutter, new player fails to pay heed the demand/declaration, and after a few bouts of this the admin has enough and decides to kick the player. Or even in a twist of extreme fate and impossibility the players in the server start a votekick and kick the player who is perceived to be trolling/griefing.

 

Few games later, after reading up on 6v6 and (miraculously) understands why the utility classes are not run 24/7, Player A returns. Person B joins the server. Person B is a highly respected and renowned player, and is known as one of the best players of X class. Person A did not get picked, and is thus in Spectator. He sees Player B go all sorts of off-classes on mid; Pyro, Spy, maybe even Engineer. Or perhaps he sees Person B go Sniper for the entire round, and nobody dares say a word. Why risk incurring the dislike of Player B when the teams are stacked anyway, and doing so would potentially cause others to look at me like I'm a "funkiller"?

 

The admin, too, seeing as "nobody has complained", doesn't speak up. For reasons I can assume being "nobody is complaining anyway, why stir up trouble" and/or "why ruin my relationship with Person B", amongst others. Forgive me if this is not indeed the thought process, and it is something else.

 

And this is a situation I've seen plenty. Perhaps Person A's situation not as often, but definitely seems realistic. Person B's, on the other hand, is a stereotype I've seen occur plenty of times in the PUG servers.

 

Yes, as various others have mentioned, a solution is to carefully pick admins. So I come forth with a few proposals.

  1. Wipe the current admin list short of the essential ones, and start a careful and thorough re-picking of admins who prove themselves to have the etiquette, temper-control, fairness and neutrality fit to be an admin
  2. Begin a culture of a no-tolerance rule against unnecessary offclassing. This requires current veteran players to begin leading by example and taking a stance against people blatantly trolling/griefing/unnecessarily offclassing even if said player is a friend or a highly respected and popular player.
  3. Additionally, something like an "honesty box" could be implemented to help begin the culture. Say, a web form of email inbox where players who believe another is offclassing unnecessarily could anonymously report the server, date, time, player name and if possible the demo tick. This encourages honesty and allows for players to report such incidents without the fear of repercussion.
  4. Re-write the rules such that they are abundantly clear on the policy against unnecessary offclassing. As it stands, I'm not sure if honestly anybody can come up with better/clearer wording without any loopholes or perspective issues ("when is it deemed unnecessary?").

In the end, all I ask for is that the culture of "tolerance if respected/friend/liked" be stopped and no longer continued, as unrealistic and improbable as it seems. The reason for the very first post in this thread was exactly to question why such players would deserve an immediate kick, while it's obvious players trolling by running Pyro to midfights will get a free ticket out if they happen to be respected/liked, and I had hoped to highlight my perspective with those posts.

 

tl;dr re-choose admins, stop the bullshit with "unnecessary offclassing is ok if nobody is complaining", and there needs to be some way to encourage players to speak up against blatant trolling and offclassing when it's done by certain, specific people who have are "high tier" or something in the community.

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i think to sum up your suggestion i would go back to "have the balls to speak up"

 

There is a lot of difference when both teams are offclassing and having a bit of fun, as opposed to 11 people playing seriously and one guy fooling around.

 

In the first situation no one complains, in the second people complain.

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i think to sum up your suggestion i would go back to "have the balls to speak up" There is a lot of difference when both teams are offclassing and having a bit of fun, as opposed to 11 people playing seriously and one guy fooling around. In the first situation no one complains, in the second people complain.

Or teams are stacked, there are six people on the rolled side are trying to win and there is that one guy on the rolling team running for example Spy full-time and not getting punished for it.

 

And that's another problem. Is it okay to excessively and unnecessarily offclass if everyone is doing it too? Who decides how far and to who the rules can be bent to? If just one guy is taking the game seriously and does not wish to engage in a 6v6 pub with no random crits, can the 11 other people still troll around?

 

The more important part of my suggestions is not the "speaking up" one, because that seems improbable to me at least in the foreseeable future, but completely re-picking the admins, perhaps even with community input, seems the way to go for me.

 

Some form of anonymous reporting of trolls and stupid offclassing seems like a logical way to go as well.

 

EDIT: And one more possible solution would be allowing access to the sm_votekick and sm_voteban function, which allows for admins to immediately highlight a player for a kick or ban. Instead of the current votekick we are used to, this command invokes a "Yes/No" menu for the entire server, with the question being "Kick <insert player="" name="" here="">?". This removes the need for 8 people to initiate a votekick, and ensures that the people on the server agree that someone should be banned for X offense. Sure it's not perfect, but it's a start, and what is?

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the decision to give more power to the people is why the american judicial system is so damn fucked up today, you're willing to give a bunch of people ,whom honestly couldn't be bothered, all the decision making power.

 

furthermore, experienced offclassers wouldn't even hit the point in the game that they need to be "tolerated", the ends justifies the means, nobody would complain if it works, people who off class would regress to normal lineups by themselves should the offclass fail.

 

Most people stop when their offclassing does not work, 2 people camping in a forward spawn for more than a minute with players screaming for you to move out is beyond tolerable, even if the player is experienced.

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give them back their powers....

 

admins can't be a bunch of castrated eunuchs....

 

or devaginaed eunuchesses...

 

we aren't customers here... these servers are free for us... so from the perspective of one enjoying free servers to play on... just be thankful you get to play...

 

doesn't mean admin abuse is right though...

 

as you can see.... admin abuse doesn't get looked past easily...

 

The fella got caught but the punishment too ji ba booms... one shot all the admins got castrated and devaginaed...

 

every community has its corruption... we as players must learn to live w it...

 

cos there is no way to ensure perfect admins... just better quality control... but u never know... one day... nata emo... shut down asiafortress for good...

 

so be thankful and play your game now....

 

im too old for this...................

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having admins picked by the community is probably the stupidest idea ever.

Not picked by the community. Picked with community input.

 

e.g. nominated by player votes, feedback, suggestions, etc.

 

the decision to give more power to the people is why the american judicial system is so damn fucked up today, you're willing to give a bunch of people ,whom honestly couldn't be bothered, all the decision making power.

 

furthermore, experienced offclassers wouldn't even hit the point in the game that they need to be "tolerated", the ends justifies the means, nobody would complain if it works, people who off class would regress to normal lineups by themselves should the offclass fail.

 

Most people stop when their offclassing does not work, 2 people camping in a forward spawn for more than a minute with players screaming for you to move out is beyond tolerable, even if the player is experienced.

So what you are saying is that inappropriate offclassing is fine as long as the team doesn't suffer?

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give them back their powers....

 

admins can't be a bunch of castrated eunuchs....

 

or devaginaed eunuchesses...

 

we aren't customers here... these servers are free for us... so from the perspective of one enjoying free servers to play on... just be thankful you get to play...

 

doesn't mean admin abuse is right though...

 

as you can see.... admin abuse doesn't get looked past easily...

 

The fella got caught but the punishment too ji ba booms... one shot all the admins got castrated and devaginaed...

 

every community has its corruption... we as players must learn to live w it...

 

cos there is no way to ensure perfect admins... just better quality control... but u never know... one day... nata emo... shut down asiafortress for good...

 

so be thankful and play your game now....

 

im too old for this...................

 

Perfectly summed up in:

 

EoPrNgf.gif

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Not picked by the community. Picked with community input.

 

e.g. nominated by player votes, feedback, suggestions, etc.

 

 

So what you are saying is that inappropriate offclassing is fine as long as the team doesn't suffer?

 

Why is offclassing still considered inappropriate if the team isn't suffering? So what do you consider appropriate offclassing then?

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P.S. Video link was in response to russkan's claim no "HALF-DECENT" team will fall for a forward spawn strat.

 

excuse you shitcunt

 

the topic was having a demo and a medic in the forward spawn.. which you may not know but is kinda different from a single heavy.. but you wouldnt know about getting ubers or grinding them anyway so whatever..

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P.S. Video link was in response to russkan's claim no "HALF-DECENT" team will fall for a forward spawn strat.

 

excuse you shitcunt

 

the topic was having a demo and a medic in the forward spawn.. which you may not know but is kinda different from a single heavy.. but you wouldnt know about getting ubers or grinding them anyway so whatever..

So "any HALF DECENT player would be looking at spawns at know if theres a chance of people being inside the spawn.." no longer applies if it's a Heavy instead of a Medic and Demoman in forward spawn?

 

Ok.

 

Why is offclassing still considered inappropriate if the team isn't suffering? So what do you consider appropriate offclassing then?

When the situation is such that it's better to run X class instead of either Scout or Soldier at that particular point in time.

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if you watched the clip you ever so kindly posted for me, even the commentator knew that it was a big mistake on their part on letting the heavy do that.. sure they made a mistake and it cost them.. doesnt make it a legit strat..

 

and #just #saying next time you have a sip of alcohol and try to hug me.. i wont gently shrug you off.

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if you watched the clip you ever so kindly posted for me, even the commentator knew that it was a big mistake on their part on letting the heavy do that.. sure they made a mistake and it cost them.. doesnt make it a legit strat.. and #just #saying next time you have a sip of alcohol and try to hug me.. i wont gently shrug you off.

The part where you mentioned how it's different with a Demoman and Medic still puzzles me though.

 

Do enlighten?

 

If in a LAN teams make such massive and improbable mistakes, is it likely that teams in PUGs will not make the same mistakes?

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oh wow that escalated quickly. isn't this about admins getting powers back or not?

 

want to fight go.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MGE.

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oh wow that escalated quickly. isn't this about admins getting powers back or not? want to fight go..... MGE.

Who's fighting man, do you see anyone fighting here?

 

I don't see anyone angry.or mad.

 

Just having a polite, civilized discussion with no name calling, petty insults and other kinds of childish nonsense.

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