PSA: Offclassing in AF pugs

[iridescentFUZZ 178]

my pipedream would be a creation of veteran pugs with the enforcement of mumble usage. it is not a knock on noobs but to maintain a higher level playing field because of the lack of actually team 6v6s as teams only assemble every other cup and dissemble like fucking voltron.

 

That seems a bit redundant, seeing as you can just form a mix team. There are also a reasonable amount of regular scrim teams now, and I don't mean just local teams. Considering teams from all regions, I think there are at least 10 teams that will be free to scrim on a good day, at a good time.

 

As for setting up a list of guidelines for new people on when and where to offclass or not, I have no interest in racking my brain for such an exhaustive list. I will also caution that such a list must be as concise as possible, and even if it is, it's likely to be ignored(like everything else that is to be read) by new players.

Lastly, if the list is created, it would be best to use both the guidelines and the "off-classing green-light" from your team to know when to off-class.

[natapon 124]

[Azazel 82]

WA LAO

[Bob 64]

 

referring to Rawr_ in a post

(http://asiafortress....des-of-players/)

 

"The newcomer would think that off-classing for most of the pug is ok and do it in order to replicate the results of the experienced pugger which can be disastrous."

 

"We should set an example by only using the utility classes when the situation demands it"

 

When is this situation? How can we communicate this?

 

"The last thing we need in pugs is a newcomer rolling out to badlands mid as engineer :/"

 

Exactly, how else to ensure this besides putting these guidelines in an MOTD or perhaps refer new puggers to forums which addresses specifically these situations?[/font][/color]

 

Is it just me or is this guy doing an structured essay question. His essay structure is wrong though. The order is point, example and then explanation, not all over the place.

 

This link might be useful.

 

www.slideshare.net/FrancyPhay/answering-structured-essay-questions"]www.slideshare.net/FrancyPhay/answering-structured-essay-questions

 

SEQ must be need and tidy and to the point, not beating around the bush and trying to make your point look big. You'll lose marks.

 

I think...

[joe 76]

[Baddyz 4]

so many pictures :3

[Azazel 82]

Is it just me or is this guy doing an structured essay question. His essay structure is wrong though. The order is point, example and then explanation, not all over the place.

 

This link might be useful.

 

www.slideshare.net/FrancyPhay/answering-structured-essay-questions

 

SEQ must be need and tidy and to the point, not beating around the bush and trying to make your point look big. You'll lose marks.

 

I think...

 

 

not structured essay, clearly no paragraphs.

 

Last I recalled MOE was the organization compelling students to follow certain sentence structures and the preferred model of writing.

 

You might want to sign up with NIE, good career choice for you since you're clearly a good student valuing them marks. Good for you!

[joe 76]

not structured essay, clearly no paragraphs.

 

Last I recalled MOE was the organization compelling students to follow certain sentence structures and the preferred model of writing.

 

You might want to sign up with NIE, good career choice for you since you're clearly a good student valuing them marks. Good for you!

 

Says you who takes online arguments so seriously.

[Azazel 82]

Says you who takes online arguments so seriously.

 

What? YOU MEAN U DON'T? O.O

[joe 76]

What? YOU MEAN U DON'T? O.O

 

Because replying with GIFs is perfectly professional.

 

[natapon 124]

What? YOU MEAN U DON'T? O.O

 

good that you have learnt to quote properly

[Azazel 82]

So trolling a thread started by Madman regarding specific issues of off-classing in asiafortress pugs is perfectly professional as well?

 

Well done.

 

 

Anyway, back to the issue.

 

So I was having a conversation today with a few of the admins on mumble this morning at 4am(seriously) and then later at 5pm in the afternoon, and through a heated conversation certain perspectives were revealed.

 

off-classing to mid: no, i don't care who you are

 

necessity is situation dependent. why do you need to offclass in the first place?

 

I have been referring to this time and again because it is a conclusive statement, and I'd like to think that natapon is the shot-caller here in asiafortress.

 

Many of the admins, be it pug admins or asiafortress admins, have very different and even conflicting views about AF rules, and the "unnecessary offclassing" rule in particular.

 

Some have even been saying how "natapon doesn't mean it", or "let's see whether this gets enforced".

 

Different people have different perspectives, hence different degrees of tolerance and cause of action, that I understand.

 

However, some have perspectives that directly compromise the rule itself.

 

So in the late afternoon on 19/12/12:

 

AFL ADMIN: Kicked x2 | Mamamia ?(???)?

Player x2 | Mamamia ?(???)? left the game (Kicked by administrator)

*DEAD* sud : !replace

*SPEC* farnsy : admin pls

sud : !replace

 

Mamamia forced uber as a spy at gullywash last.

 

Whether necessary or not is disputable, and thus let's not discuss the ambiguity of the word "unnecessary" because that will just never end.

 

Later that day, at 2am on granary...

 

Veteran players were running sniper to middle, spy to middle, for a good 5 rounds.

 

At first I thought it would be only for a few rounds, so I simply kept quiet and waited for the 3 server admins playing together with us to react.

 

However, many rounds passed and there was no result.

 

The only "warning" that was given after 4 rounds was "don't offclass leh, your offclassing makes me sad"

 

Onward to koth_viaduct, which is notorious for offclassing, and since it only has one mid point, it does complicate the "no off-classing to mid" rule.

 

Here we have veterans running 24/7 spies, 2 snipers on a team, you name it.

 

So I brought this up with the admins in mumble at the time, and these were some of the replies.

 

"I think the unnecessary offclassing rule applies more to the new players, than the old players. I think its okay for the old players to be off-classing"

 

"You must know what time of the night it is... its 2am in the morning... who cares?"

 

What? Really?

 

So I asked, if it were 8pm at prime time, and if it were an old player who was running an off-class to middle, whether he would warn the fellow.

 

"Of course, I would."

 

Come 4pm today, 20/12/12 on AF #2 pug server, there was a sniper offclassing to gullywash middle for 5 consecutive rounds.

 

When I questioned the same admin who said he would react to an off-class to mid in the prime time of the day whether old player or new player(since earlier his argument was that it was at 2am so its ok), he retorted with:

 

"Was that sniper effective?"

"If that sniper kills 6 people at mid, you mean to say he can't be running sniper to mid?"

"What do you want me to do? The rule itself is ambiguous, and because it is ambiguous it is enforceable"

 

Yes, enforcable in situations that admins deem it unambiguous, which happens to be players that are new to the scene, whereas veteran players get a simple "don't offclass leh, your offclassing makes me sad"

 

"Is it my fault that you got killed by the sniper? It's not my fault that you are bad and you can't handle a sniper at middle"

 

This is one half of the coin, the other half is when new guys are called out even though they're playing things straight and when vets don't get called out even when they're doing it (very, very) wrong. More tolerance is needed on BOTH sides.

 

In before discussing the professionalism of this particular admin, and how his perspectives change at his whim, let us consider the thought process and how this relates to the entire discourse.

 

If X is effective, he can be running any class he wants to anywhere.

 

To further solidify his argument, he suggests that "in a scrim, if it is effective, why not? how is a pug any different from a scrim?"

 

In a scrim, you are answerable to your teammates, and the consequence is your win or loss. Any rules are the competition rules that you agree to when you sign up with your team.

 

Why would a rule like "no unnecessary off-classing" be required in a PUG, but not a scrim?

 

The difference that is eluding the admin is self-evident.

 

Honestly, I don't blame the admins for having different perspectives on the issue, overreacting to new players off-classing, or total inaction towards blatant off-classing by veteran players.

 

Because ultimately, I don't think any one of us are clear about anything.

 

off-classing to mid: no, i don't care who you are

 

necessity is situation dependent. why do you need to offclass in the first place?

 

Is that really set in stone?

Do you really mean it?

 

Because honestly it is not that hard to enforce.

 

NO OFFCLASSING TO MID: I DON'T CARE WHO YOU ARE (ON CP MAPS-covering that potential koth loophole)

 

An ambiguous statement will only lead even more so to inaction because our community is so small, and its not rare that the admin is facing an offender who is a friend.

 

The only way to be impartial is if the RULE ITSELF IS CLEAR.

 

Madman spoke of how guidelines and more rules will only encourage hiding and making use of loopholes.

 

I would argue that the current rule of "No unnecessary offclassing" is simply a gigantic loophole that all of us are hiding behind.

 

So what is the stand?

 

Off-classing is okay if you are effective. If you can kill the entire team and survive running sniper/pyro/heavy/engineer/spy to any situation, it is absolutely okay.

 

or

 

No off-classing to mid no matter who you are, and any additional off-classing at 2nd/last depends on the necessity of the situation.

 

I don't care if I get sniped 5/5 times I head out to mid by a killer sniper. They have one less scout/soldier, and off-classing creates a different disadvantage for that particular team.

 

If it is still not clear enough to people yet, the issue here is the double standards that ensue as a result of an ambiguous rule.

 

Things have to be made clear and conclusive.

While it is impossible to state every situation that will allow/disallow off-classing, natapon came up with one simple guideline:

 

"no off-classing to mid"

 

If there can be double standards or admins that blatantly ignore such a clear and distinct statement, I give up.

[joe 76]

Ok. Your point? Double standards? So what do you want to do about it? Strip that particular admin of his rights and give someone who will harshly enforce this "No offclassing to mid" rule root access?

 

Because honestly man, if after 2 pages you can't get your point across its either we are all fucking retarded or your points are as ambiguous as the "no offclassing to mid" rule itself.

 

What would I do? I'll tell that person to not offclass. Asking someone nicely brings you further than posting on a forum thread that puggers don't even read regularly.

 

Don't bother replying to this if you're just going to post another 500 word paragraph giving examples on how this rule is not enforced and shit.

[natapon 124]

viaduct/ashville is of course an exception to the no offclassing to mid rule as it is a map where offclassing is viable. a sniper in place of a roamer etc.

 

running a sniper and a spy at the same time of course is retarded and only teaches the new players the wrong things.

 

Off-classing is okay if you are effective. If you can kill the entire team and survive running sniper/pyro/heavy/engineer/spy to any situation, it is absolutely okay.

 

the rule really comes down to clamping down on unintelligent play. offclassing slows down the game and makes it less fun and exciting to play.

 

i'm not around all the time in the pugs so don't be afraid to provide evidence/proof to me on excessive offclassing etc by admins.

 

on another note: don't be afraid of admins.

[Azazel 82]

Ok. Your point? Double standards? So what do you want to do about it? Strip that particular admin of his rights and give someone who will harshly enforce this "No offclassing to mid" rule root access?

 

If you haven't noticed, this is not a witch hunt. If it were there would be names being thrown around. It doesn't matter who said what. I try to keep everything as impersonal and directed towards the issue as possible, so the above solution you suggested is obviously impractical and draconic.

 

 

 

Because honestly man, if after 2 pages you can't get your point across its either we are all fucking retarded or your points are as ambiguous as the "no offclassing to mid" rule itself.

 

Because honestly man, the only person going all "huurrrdurrrr I don't understand shit you sayin bro", is you.

 

From the initial discussion with cameron, natapon, darkie, puzzled, r3sty, and finally Fuzz, all of them have been replying with intelligent replies and giving their own input on the matter.

 

You, on the other hand, have only been confounded.

 

Teal, Madman, Fuzz has read my posts and we've had constructive discussions on mumble/steam chat etc.

 

I hate to come across as rude, but I believe the problem to be your lack of ability to comprehend the English language(where everyone else who has posted clearly has).

 

Every undergraduate has learnt this golden rule: If you haven't done your readings for the tutorial, don't open your mouth and speak.

 

So with all due respect, if you can't understand my posts, feel free to ignore them because this forum isn't meant for people stuck at your level of comprehension only.

 

Or you can continue to go "huurrrdurrrr I don't understand shit you sayin bro", and proceed to paste other uninteresting GIFs.

 

 

Suit yourself.

 

I personally find this issue rather complicated and complex, which is why there are differing opinions and disputes regarding off-classing.

 

 

 

If everything can be easily concluded, summarized, and packaged....

 

What you want doesn't refer to another post ending in questions and questions for a discussion. It ends in a fullstop because PERIOD.

 

 

Then there is no need for a discussion. Last I recalled, this is the General Discussion section of the forum.

 

For a staff member of this asiafortress forum to be continuously leading the discussing in a segway, ala trolling, and contributing unintelligently to the conversation because he simply cannot understand thread posts that others can, I suggest simply:

 

 

simple, unanimated jpg for you.

 

If you're not here to discuss, but place your period on every active discussion, then we'll just have to wait for the week to end.

 

P.S: I've highlighted the tl;dr parts just for you joe, so after you purchase this "Hooked On Phonics" package be sure to read the parts in bold i've highlighted in the previous post.

[Azazel 82]

viaduct/ashville is of course an exception to the no offclassing to mid rule as it is a map where offclassing is viable. a sniper in place of a roamer etc.

 

running a sniper and a spy at the same time of course is retarded and only teaches the new players the wrong things.

 

the rule really comes down to clamping down on unintelligent play. offclassing slows down the game and makes it less fun and exciting to play.

 

i'm not around all the time in the pugs so don't be afraid to provide evidence/proof to me on excessive offclassing etc by admins.

 

on another note: don't be afraid of admins.

 

Finally, back to the issue.

 

Thanks natapon for your reply.

 

If no off-classing to mid is a rule indeed, can we have it in the MOTD so it becomes "in the rules"?

 

This way, even if admins have to warn/kick their friends, there is something concrete for them to refer to so it is less of a guilt trip.

 

I would also like to highlight, that a big factor of this unnecessary offclassing rule is to not "teach new players the wrong things".

 

In other words, running a sniper to granary mid, or spy to granary mid, or pyro to badlands mid, isn't ALL ABOUT HOW EFFECTIVE IT IS, but also about not setting a wrong example for the new players, is it not?

 

For the mindset of the community to change, it has to be instilled through common sense (most people have it so they don't do retarded off-classing to mid), and for those who don't have that common sense or just don't give a fuck, through rules and regulations put in place to prevent retarded behaviour.

 

Have a Rule 1a that simply states "No off-classing to mid on cp maps", as a additional clause to the Rule 1 of "no unnecessary off-classing".

 

Yes, it stifles possible effective and viable playstyles(which work only when said player is div1 offclasser), but how else do you set an example for newer players?

[joe 76]

If you haven't noticed, this is not a witch hunt. If it were there would be names being thrown around. It doesn't matter who said what. I try to keep everything as impersonal and directed towards the issue as possible, so the above solution you suggested is obviously impractical and draconic. Because honestly man, the only person going all "huurrrdurrrr I don't understand shit you sayin bro", is you. From the initial discussion with cameron, natapon, darkie, puzzled, r3sty, and finally Fuzz, all of them have been replying with intelligent replies and giving their own input on the matter. You, on the other hand, have only been confounded. Teal, Madman, Fuzz has read my posts and we've had constructive discussions on mumble/steam chat etc. I hate to come across as rude, but I believe the problem to be your lack of ability to comprehend the English language(where everyone else who has posted clearly has). Every undergraduate has learnt this golden rule: If you haven't done your readings for the tutorial, don't open your mouth and speak. So with all due respect, if you can't understand my posts, feel free to ignore them because this forum isn't meant for people stuck at your level of comprehension only. Or you can continue to go "huurrrdurrrr I don't understand shit you sayin bro", and proceed to paste other uninteresting GIFs. Suit yourself. I personally find this issue rather complicated and complex, which is why there are differing opinions and disputes regarding off-classing. If everything can be easily concluded, summarized, and packaged.... Then there is no need for a discussion. Last I recalled, this is the General Discussion section of the forum. For a staff member of this asiafortress forum to be continuously leading the discussing in a segway, ala trolling, and contributing unintelligently to the conversation because he simply cannot understand thread posts that others can, I suggest simply: simple, unanimated jpg for you. If you're not here to discuss, but place your period on every active discussion, then we'll just have to wait for the week to end. P.S: I've highlighted the tl;dr parts just for you joe, so after you purchase this "Hooked On Phonics" package be sure to read the parts in bold i've highlighted in the previous post.

 

 

Thanks for breaking up my posts into different quotes.

 

Do I understand what you're saying? Yeah! I do infact, I really do. But one thing I don't understand is what are you trying to get at. You want the offclassing rule to be more concise and specific? You want the veteran puggers to stop offclassing unnecessarily (unless to gain the advantage for your team) so that the newer ones will learn from there to not offclass unnecessarily? Ah here it is!

 

However, progressing from status quo is what I'm suggesting.

 

This progress is simply to have guidelines to educate the newer pug community about "intelligent and effective offclassing".

 

I'm not going to bother to break your post into little quotes for you to digest because you're obviously not a baby like I am and I have a flight to catch but I'll spare some time for you.

 

Stripping the admin of his rights was not a suggestion from me. That was what I implied from your post because you seem kinda angry at that certain someone and I actually know who that certain admin was. Why in the world would you think I would suggest something like that is beyond me. Might be my English, I don't know!

 

I hate to come across as rude, but this was a PSA (Public Service Announcement if you don't already know) from Madman. He's a moderator, he knows his shit. The first post was an announcement, not an open debate.

 

I'm sorry my level of comprehension is low. I'm clearly not up to your level of education since I wasn't born in 1987 like you were. Pardon me for being young. You're not exactly new here, so I'm not going to go all nice on you. Instead of explaining to me what you said, you had to go all "bitch im a crazy motherfucker who knows my shit so don't fuck with me". Doesn't make you any better than me by posting bigass unanimated GIFs and calling me out now. Yeah I know, you're defending yourself but hey I am too! Is this how you educate the community? By telling them (specifically me) that their level of comprehension is lower than the Marianas Trench? Ouch, I need some water for that third degree burn.

 

Also, why are you selectively quoting me? Why did you not quote and talk about my "What would I do?" <--- this I'm just asking, pls don flam mi i por littl boi

 

How was I trolling the thread anyway? The first post I posted on this thread was

Aiyo if they are running full time spy and no one is checking flanks and your one scout can't handle the flanks then tell him to switch back lah!!!!!

 

If you think that's trolling then well fine by me I guess that's your opinion I can't do anything about it. If you've not read my other posts I've been posting GIFs quite often. My GIF of the lady and her eyes going all derp was in a response to Relic's post.

 

Thanks for taking the time to bold the important parts of your post for me to read because I would have never thought of doing that! But sadly, it'll be better if you were a good Samaritan in game because here in the forums only people like you and me read them. The current batch of AFA probably registered solely to sign up for AFA, and some don't touch the forums afterwards. I understand if you're trying to come up with a viable solution for the admins here to consider so that it will be implemented in game but it might actually take too long. I was playing medic for AFA yesterday and there were already people randomnly switching to heavy to "push". Puzzled was the one doing the calling so he told the guy to stop offclassing unnecessarily but he kinda still almost did it anyway. Where did they get that mindset from??????? Thankfully no one offclassed to mid.

 

Wait actually Snowy did as Sniper.

 

Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to reply to my trolling posts, really means a lot especially since I'm all young and new here, the veterans replying to you is a huge achievement.

 

Also, would you mind purchasing the entire Hooked on Phonics set for me? It's just USD219.96, affordable for 25-year-old like you :)/> I can't get it myself though, since I have to start with the Pre-K edition which means I can't enter my Visa details.

[Morgan 135]

im with evan on this one. people who are not afraid to speak up on issues of fairness, community improvement and "sensitive" issues are few and greatly lacking in our community. but with regards to your argument on this whole offclassing issue.

 

IF SOMEONE ON YOUR TEAM COMPLAINS, STOP OFFCLASSING

 

You can run through a hundred different scenarios where this rule is all that you need. I personally will not think twice about kicking a "veteran" player if he abuses the rules (Ask choc).

 

Me being a typical low life scum bag admin, i follow the following guidelines when it comes to kicking players.

 

1) i warn

2) i warn

3) i warn with curse words

4) i kick

 

it's as simple as that.

[teal 156]

IMO, it is very difficult for one to set down the rules regarding offclassing because its situational.

I dont mind ppl offclassing so long as they help the team out.

 

All in all, take it easy everyone... its just a puggggggggggggg healthy discussion please. Stop arguing!

[joe 76]

I apologize for my immaturity and lack of understanding.

[Guest qjyap]

To sum this up

 

tubby still reigns supreme

[DarKie 15]

im with evan on this one. people who are not afraid to speak up on issues of fairness, community improvement and "sensitive" issues are few and greatly lacking in our community. but with regards to your argument on this whole offclassing issue. IF SOMEONE ON YOUR TEAM COMPLAINS, STOP OFFCLASSING You can run through a hundred different scenarios where this rule is all that you need. I personally will not think twice about kicking a "veteran" player if he abuses the rules (Ask choc). Me being a typical low life scum bag admin, i follow the following guidelines when it comes to kicking players. 1) i warn 2) i warn 3) i warn with curse words 4) i kick it's as simple as that.

 

^

[spammah 103]

Glad this debate has settled but IT AIN'T OVER

 

EVANGOH DO TRAIN YOUR DM SKILLS AND IMPROVE AS A PLAYER AND TRY NOT TO GET SIDETRACKED BY ISSUES POLITICAL OR OTHERWISE LIKE THIS OFFCLASSING CRAP OK?!?!?!

 

PROVE YOUR WORTH THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS!!!!!!1

 

Good luck!

[Azazel 82]

Glad this debate has settled but IT AIN'T OVER

 

EVANGOH DO TRAIN YOUR DM SKILLS AND IMPROVE AS A PLAYER AND TRY NOT TO GET SIDETRACKED BY ISSUES POLITICAL OR OTHERWISE LIKE THIS OFFCLASSING CRAP OK?!?!?!

 

PROVE YOUR WORTH THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS!!!!!!1

 

Good luck!

 

yes boss

[natapon 124]

yes boss

 

and spammah's sexy voice has claimed another victim