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Hackasaures

Please allow the Boston Basher :(

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Just to correct you, It is allowed in AsiaFortress, it isn't allowed in AFL/Pug servers.

 

One possible reason they disallowed it in AFL was probably since AFL wanted scouts to actually go out and deal/take some damage (i.e. scouting) and come back for healing, instead of staying with the medic.

 

AFL doesn't just let classes use an unlock that other leagues have already implemented. The unlock under scrutiny will undergo some discussion, so if you still insist that the boston basher should be allowed, go ahead and give a few good reasons, I'm sure an admin will hear you out :)

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He accidentally the whole word?

 

But in all seriousness, are the trickjumps any more detrimental to overall game balance than having the huntsman or jarate whitelisted?

 

I'm not trying to step on any toes here, but in a lot of ways, the huntsman just lowers the skill ceiling for sniper and takes away a little control from the team facing the huntsman on account of its sometimes unpredictable behaviour.

For example, it might be argued that rockets/rollers are as unpredictable for someone turning the a corner and walking into them, but neither rollers nor rockets(unless kritzed) will randomly one-shot 125 HP classes(with charged bodyshots that have a higher limit of 137) and one-shot every class without overheal(with a charged headshot of 360)

 

While jarate is not broken in theory, it tends to give a very significant advantage to the team running the jarate sniper since it often forces jarateed players to fall back and wait for the effect to wear off, leading to more stalemates. This is in addition to the fact that jarate too lowers the amount of skill required to maximise damage output, which in my opinion is a bad thing.

When jarate was unbanned in North America, there were teams using it to easily force uber, slow pushes, disrupt positioning and overall take significant control away from the enemy team. I mean, compare it to other methods of getting the enemy med to use uber, such as jumping soldiers at them, projectile spam from fairly close, and scouts. All of those methods take skill, in addition to the fact that you're running the risk of losing a player(or more), while jarate+projectile spam from mid-long range is so much simpler with far less of a skill requisite.

 

Is taking control away from your opponents a bad thing? No; quite the opposite, in fact.

However, taking control(obtained via skillful positioning, co-ordination, strategies, aim/movement ability) away from a team by simply throwing a jar of piss into 3+ opponents is something that I see as too powerful for league play.

 

Back to the boston basher. Does the uber-building ability give a significant advantage to the team running it, and does it take significant control away from the other team for little or no skill? Well, since the only time it'll really be used is when both soldiers are down and there's a pressing need to build uber quickly, the window for that will be very small in most cases, unless you've got a weird team with terribly suicidal soldiers and scouts that always manage to stay alive.

TL;DR: While it doesn't take skill to build uber with the basher, I don't see this aspect as providing a huge advantage to the team running it(barring bizarre, very infrequent situations), neither does it really take control away from the other team.

 

As to the trick-jumping abilities, the questions that need to be asked are again; does it provide a significant advantage to the team running, does it require skill to execute, and does it take significant control away from the other team?

The trick-jumps take at least a decent amount of skill to execute perfectly, and even then, you require either a significant overheal or nearby healthkits to be able to make the most of the jumps since you'll be taking 58 damage with just overheal and no kits, and a minimum of 18 with healthkits around. How often will circumstances be perfect to execute any of these jumps? Not very often, I'd think, since you're having to deal with damage from opponents, having to use healthkits(when available) to mitigate that damage, in addition to the fact that you can't use either your pistol or scattergun to defend yourself when jumping with the basher.

TL;DR: Basher trick-jumps will certainly provide a slight advantage to the team running it in the few situations that a scout(or both) will be able to surprise the enemy team. And while it does also take control away from enemy players by negating their positioning skills(in certain situations), I feel that the skill required to execute them, being unable to use your primary/secondary, and the health trade-off make it a fairly balanced unlock option.

 

In the end, I don't really care what unlocks are allowed since I'll continue playing either way, but it would be nice to see less silly, 'for the fun of it' unlocks that either work as crutches or encourage players to lose focus on improving their personal and team-related skills.

Oh, and sorry for the wall of text.

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-snip-

Holy shit, I love your arguement. And I agree with the idea of Huntsman being banned, it's way too easy to just spam and get bodyshots/headshots.

 

Also hopefully this will sway how some people feel about the basher :D

 

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Basher is ridiculously OP. Team-destroying OP. It sounds fun when you're the only scout using it to bully other scout pairs but imagine when everyone runs it because its too good to pass up...

Been there, done that. Please don't give people another gimmicky I-WIN button.

 

BATMAN OUT

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Basher is ridiculously OP. Team-destroying OP. It sounds fun when you're the only scout using it to bully other scout pairs but imagine when everyone runs it because its too good to pass up...

 

Well, if it comes to a scenario where everyone is running it, it would be pretty much an equalizer for scout, would it not? In fact, it would be far more balanced than the equalizer since the equalizer basically allows you to have bad positioning skills and get away with it often, while at least the basher would require timing, effort, and at least a little skill.

 

Been there, done that. Please don't give people another gimmicky I-WIN button.

 

Well, if you've had experience using it or going up against someone using it in a significant amount of scrims/league matches, I'll concede to your stance on the whole thing.

 

It would be nice if you could clarify whether you're referring to the jumps or the bleed-on-hit on target as being gimmicky. While I'll certainly agree that bleed is a gimmicky mechanic, the trick-jumps are really just a type of emergent gameplay, no different from rocket/sticky-jumping in TF2 or plasma-climbing, rocket-jumping and strafe jumping in Q3A.

 

To add on, the trickjumps are VERY viable as a scout.

 

Posted by BloodSire in response to a post made by eXtine:

"I'm not sure you have much experience with the Boston Basher. Two seasons ago I used it in every scrim and no one noticed. As a scout there is literally no reason to make yourself have even less HP unless you are sure to find a HP pack soon, but often that is risky. It used to work real well with BONK, but now BONK is banned. "

 

Source: http://natf2.com/posts/10228

 

Admittedly, we do have BONK allowed, so I'd understand the Basher remaining banned till BONK is banned(if that ever happens).

 

I barely play scout any more, am not in a team and I have no vested interests in the implementation of the Basher. I just think it'd be nice to see weapon unlocks that add actual skill-based depth to gameplay.

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analogy:

having everyone irl to buy a huge ass-ed gun because one idiot is running around shooting people with it does not necessarily make the world a more peaceful place

 

that applies for tf2 as well,

especially when scouts see that they cannot use the BB against other scout pairs, so they use it to annoy other classes, in terms of:

1. bad ass leaking because even idiots will know the location of medpacks

2. commence annoying

3. escape

4. profit or rinse and repeat

 

maybe weapons can be given trial periods to determine their viability and practicality so that debates wont be sparked then killed then revived again

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I believe the best policy with unlocks is to find a scrim where both sides agree to lift restrictions on a certain unlock, play it out and ask yourself if you really want to see this in-game.

 

I used to wield a three-rune blade as a way of sneaking the basher under the whitelist and one of the most ridiculously overpowered things you could do is backcap granmid then when confronted, disappear behind a crate for a moment and get to the top using the basher. You can do so with full health because of the pill and now you're sure to beat the sollies that are already low from RJing to get you. Also, being a heavy user of the bat despite the general opinion that its useless, I can safely say its really easy to score a single hit on the enemy scout which will take off a really good 60-70 dmg (initial + bleed). You have to ask yourself whether you want a situation where every scout fight will revolve around starting a bleed, unlocks are meant to complement and add to your options, not cut it down. I think its too gimmicky to ezmode your face out of a good duel.

 

But, try it yourself.

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if a scout actually tries to hit me with a boston basher on a duel or mid fight, you'd have to be a fucking edeot. 1 click of boston bashers takes 58 of your own health, that's why you should not even bother trying to hit anyone with boston basher. if i see a scout with boston basher i will +fwd that scout so hard and just do 71dmg. so hitting anyone with boston basher is stupid, a scatter can do 300dmg in 3secs as compared to boston basher doing 70dmg take will take about 5805 years. the only good use of a boston basher is to grind uber when all your edeotic heavy classes is dead or you want to grind in a defensive position so the heavies can set a great wall of defense.

 

i would say equalizer is by far more OP than boston basher. equalizer does 88 to 113 dmg in an instant hit. it gives you speed and doesn't minus your health. and everyone is ok with this? good fucking logic

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