rolling to spec in pugs

[hedwig 18]

why is that even our problem honestly? If I will play sniper no matter what and there are no admins around what can you do about it? You want us to enforce rules that can annoy people who play "normally" just to make it harder for someone to be an asshole? Here's the solution: Treat pugs like pugs. Even in NA I promise you there is probably some asshole who will offclass like a nigger.

 

The only real issue I see is how people are so rigid about the meta-game. How do you have the authority to teach people how to play the game even when someone like Pyyyyyyour or Platinum have no answer? The truth is that the way we play works in the current meta-game but you shouldn't be surprised in the future when snipers are so good that one is ran 24/7, how can you blame sud anymore?

 

i can't see the logic of how it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug.

 

before all these recent posts, i was thinking about how only newer players get called out for offclassing, but i'm glad it isn't the case.

 

//edited

[Azazel 82]

i can't see the logic of how it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug.

 

Not that I agree with his non-logic, because how can anyone agree with non-logic right?

 

Right?

 

First of all, I don't think it is exactly accurate to rephrase his non-logic as "it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug".

 

TO BE FAIR.....

 

Shounic does NOT, at ANY point in time, insinuate that "it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug".

 

I hate to defend him, but just to be fair....

 

I believe that he stares at a zombie apocalypse and decides to...

 

 

Just in case nobody gets it yet, allow me to explain.

 

He has no opinion about whether its okay or not to be assholes in a pug.

 

However, he points out that puggers who are non-admins will not be able to do anything about assholes.

 

Which is true, except for the fact that there exists a votekick/voteban option that these apparently annoyed puggers cannot be bothered to or are too passive to make use of.

 

He also points out that enforcing rules against offclassing, while able to prevent inappropriate offclassing will also then prevent appropriate offclassing.

 

Which is true, except that our rules against offclassing at the moment do not seem to inconvenience appropriate offclassers.

 

After all, action is only taken when admins are around.

 

Most(some) of the time, our admins are level headed enough to tell the difference between inappropriate or appropriate offclassing.

 

So, with asiafortress's very loosely enforced appropriate off-classing rule in place, I fail to recognize how appropriate offclassers are being punished as a byproduct of inappropriate offclassing control.

 

tl;dr

 

Shounic says : its not OUR problem. honestly. Anyone can offclass without admins around. All pugs have assholes. Deal with it. This is not a solution but I claim it is one. People want to stick to main class scout/soldier/demo/medic. Why so stubborn? Quotes big shots such as Pyyyyyyour and Platinum having no answer to make argument sound more credible. Sweeping statement alert! Claims truth in a what if situation where sniper is so accurate it will replace the cookie cutter classes and become new staple. Don't blame sud.

 

While I can take another 2 mins to take apart this non-logic, I just want to point a few things out.

 

How do you have the authority to teach people how to play the game even when someone like Pyyyyyyour or Platinum have no answer?

 

How can you teach your children about life when you know nothing of life itself?

 

 

By this logic(non-logic), there should be no mentoring, guiding, teaching of any sort in asiafortress because even the great Platinum and Pyyyyyyour has no answer!

 

Oh Lord, who are we to speak of knowledge? Such blasphemy!

 

 

The truth is that the way we play works in the current meta-game but you shouldn't be surprised in the future when snipers are so good that one is ran 24/7, how can you blame sud anymore?

 

I think that while the meta-game is changing, and new and different strategies involving off-classes are being experimented in other more populated arenas (NA, EU), they can do such experimentation because they are at a higher level of play as a community even with the standard, traditional meta-game already.

 

With our current standard of play as a community at the moment, I'm not entirely sure we are ready to open the floodgates on experimentation just yet. Feel free to disagree with me, and I'm open to hear opinions(yeah yeah if we don't start now we won't ever move forward... heavy to mid is legit strat... I snipe 6 people... jibber jabber yabba dabba doo) about this as well.

 

Also, don't blame sud.

 

While you carefully pick sud as your example of an off-classing sniper, I'm sure the bad and uncontributing snipers far outnumber the good and still arguably contributing snipers.

 

Are we going to open the floodgates on the hosts of bad/uncontributing snipers/pyros/heavies/spies/engineers to allow for experimentation of new meta-games because well, we have a few good snipers in asiafortress?

 

If the answer is yes, then....

 

 

OK BACK TO HEDWIG.

 

i can't see the logic of how it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug.

 

Real world example for you to see this logic.

 

It's okay(maybe not okay but meh) to (fuck her, dump her and be the asshole) just cuz (you're practising to be the best for your future wife).

 

 

Ladies will disagree but guys you know what i'm talking about

[qjyap 29]

thats unfortunate of u, but still if u can press the spec button a little bit faster...

 

wooaaaahh huh? my point was that i did press the spec button fast enough. no matter i'll assume no one's gonna do anything about it.

 

have a query regarding one of your rules:

 

2. if u didnt switch back to normal class and pushed out with an offclass, ONCE is allowed, if u continue to do it, kick

 

what about in cases where it is the offclass that is changing the game and helping the team? is he still obligated to change back and continue losing

 

no ill will is meant in this post :-)

[haluuuuu 56]

wooaaaahh huh? my point was that i did press the spec button fast enough. no matter i'll assume no one's gonna do anything about it.

coz u pressed and rolled but u rolled last? so if u didnt roll last u wont be the one whos affected by the bug?

what i understand from u the issue is: u rolled->but u rolled last position->either the guy opted out or its the bug that makes u medic

just saying, if thats not the real issue then ignore

 

what about in cases where it is the offclass that is changing the game and helping the team? is he still obligated to change back and continue losing

yes

[qjyap 29]

coz u pressed and rolled but u rolled last? so if u didnt roll last u wont be the one whos affected by the bug? what i understand from u the issue is: u rolled->but u rolled last position->either the guy opted out or its the bug that makes u medic just saying, if thats not the real issue then ignore yes

 

thanks for the clear up. yeah what i mean is that i do click before others and the chat acknowledges it (aka i'm not the last to roll), but the game doesn't send me to spec.

 

about that rule, why is that the case? does seem counterintuitive doesn't it.

[haluuuuu 56]

thanks for the clear up. yeah what i mean is that i do click before others and the chat acknowledges it (aka i'm not the last to roll), but the game doesn't send me to spec.

 

about that rule, why is that the case? does seem counterintuitive doesn't it.

 

thats the point where u will give new comers an illusion that: u can offclass as long as it works. so, what's the point of playing pugs? what pugs are intended(normally) is to provide a chance for ppl to practice the 4 most played classes (scout soldier demo medic), u may be a game changer after u went offclass that round, but at this point, have u ever thought that u ARE losing because u cant even get to a level where u at least master the basics of the 4 classes? if u hvnt, i doubt u shudgo offclass IN ORDER TO win that particular game. if u cant win without offclassing, pubs/mokee is where u belong

[Azazel 82]

about that rule, why is that the case? does seem counterintuitive doesn't it.

 

I think the beauty of tf2 lies in that the crux of a push's success or failure relies as much on the team's class makeup, as well as what actually happens in the fight.

 

By that I mean, its hard to actually attribute your team's win solely to your offclass.

 

More often than not, an offclass is effective because of the surprise factor.

 

If you mean to say that being able to hold last as a heavy justifies pushing out of last, into 2nd and mid, into the enemy 2nd and enemy last as heavy, I find that you are clearly stretching it.

 

If you happen to win that round running a heavy, and decide to run heavy to middle this round because heavy "worked", I'm finding it hard not to raise an eyebrow.

 

If you then proceed to run heavy still while your team is failing pushes, you must really just be plain retarded.

 

I'm not saying that you implied the above situations, but i'm just putting these situations out there for argument's sake.

 

Heavy is predominantly a defensive class. Does good damage without need to reload, soaks damage, moves slow but that matters less while defending.

 

When attacking however, heavy being slow is a huge disadvantage. Heavy is unable to chase targets, and once called the enemy team will be focusing the shit out of that heavy.

 

All that while having to deal with 1 less scout/soldier.

 

Feel free to swap "heavy" for any other offclass.

 

We all know why i use "heavy" when in response to you qjyap

 

I will actually go further to put this out there.

 

Your offclass is working, MORE because the enemy team is unable to counter you, and LESS because the class itself is viable.

 

It has more to do with the PLAYER than the CLASS.

 

A div1 team with an impeccable knowledge of how to 1. aim, 2. maximize potential of offclasses and 3.the all encompassing term game sense, will be able to destroy a div3 team running straight as an arrow cookie cutter classes.

 

Well, is this because offclasses are viable?

 

Maybe, but MORE because the player is able to make use of the offclassing effectively.

 

Now, in a scrim you can take these risks(if your team is in agreement) because your own team suffers the consequences of winning/losing.

 

You may trust the judgement call of your teammate to offclass pyro to middle because you know for a fact he has practiced airblasting in public servers and dodgeball servers to the extent he can minicrit airshot reflect soldiers 100 percent of the time.

 

That's all good, in a scrim.

 

In a pug, however, not everybody is agreeable to offclassing.

 

I don't trust this other guy running an offclass 24/7 because I don't have to.

 

I think if anything the argument should be whether or not PUGS should be the playground for experimentation and whether we are ready for experimentation at high level/low level pugs.

 

If the issue at hand is that offclassers who aren't good at that offclass insist on offclassing(yes that's a mouthful), then leave outrageous offclassing to SCRIMS and let teams willing to embrace extraordinary strategies deal with the consequences.

 

Why introduce this into PUGS when we all know it will introduce far more chaos than we can swallow?

 

Feel free to disagree.

 

2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic MIGHT be stale gameplay for some of you veterans out there, but asiafortress is a community built to not only provide an environment for veterans to play, but also for newer players to learn about competitive play.

 

For newer players, 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 1 medic is a FRESH, NEW format to play within as opposed to the 9 class public server spam fest.

 

As a new player I find that there is still so much more to learn as a scout, and I know absolutely nothing about soldier/demoman/medic gameplay.

 

There is always KLOC!

 

Bring that back to satisfy the offclass fetish for all whom feel the urge

[qjyap 29]

HAHA i haven't played heavy seriously in a longgggg time. the memories

 

 

 

 

eh kloc pls

[hedwig 18]

He has no opinion about whether its okay or not to be assholes in a pug.

 

However, he points out that puggers who are non-admins will not be able to do anything about assholes.

 

 

you gave such a long and in-depth reply... i felt like i had to respond as well, heh.

 

maybe i intepreted his post wrongly, but it felt like it was along the (exaggerated) lines of "it's just a pug, so i can do what i like because no one can do anything about it", and "24/7 snipers who are OP can be viable in the future" - both of which i fully disagree with.

 

 

I think that while the meta-game is changing, and new and different strategies involving off-classes are being experimented in other more populated arenas (NA, EU), they can do such experimentation because they are at a higher level of play as a community even with the standard, traditional meta-game already.

 

With our current standard of play as a community at the moment, I'm not entirely sure we are ready to open the floodgates on experimentation just yet. Feel free to disagree with me, and I'm open to hear opinions(yeah yeah if we don't start now we won't ever move forward... heavy to mid is legit strat... I snipe 6 people... jibber jabber yabba dabba doo) about this as well.

 

 

i also doubt such snipers have anything remotely to do with testing a new play style, especially when they do it in most of the pugs, at the expense of players with inferior skills and dm. but they involve such a minute group of people that it doesn't matter, i guess. it's prolly because they're always scrimming, so they just want to relax or troll, or something...

 

(i'm narrowing it down to rolling sniper the whole time - because i'm not totally against any other sort of offclassing, even if they were carried out poorly)

 

 

Real world example for you to see this logic.

 

It's okay(maybe not okay but meh) to (fuck her, dump her and be the asshole) just cuz (you're practising to be the best for your future wife).

 

 

Ladies will disagree but guys you know what i'm talking about

 

uhm, i have nothing to say about your real world example that makes no sense at all??!

[Azazel 82]

uhm, i have nothing to say about your real world example that makes no sense at all??!

 

Ladies will disagree but guys you know what i'm talking about

 

[Azazel 82]

i also doubt such snipers have anything remotely to do with testing a new play style, especially when they do it in most of the pugs, at the expense of players with inferior skills and dm. but they involve such a minute group of people that it doesn't matter, i guess. it's prolly because they're always scrimming, so they just want to relax or troll, or something...

 

This right here.

 

 

You 24/7 snipers. You know who you are. Mmmhmm...

[Madman 185]

There's no problem with classes, just the players.

 

All the misdirected frustration stems from the lack of effort and cooperation from everyone else. All six must want to do what needs to be done to win, and respect each other too no matter how senior or newb. Though the new ones should defer to the vets on what to do to win, even if it's not what they want to do, example stop offclassing. Vets don't be selfish and take the sniper spot always, give others a chance to show themselves.

 

You all only want your own way, confident that it's the one and only way to fun and glory (it's not la). Try to listen instead, prompt others for their calls. Be the change you want to see instead. Lead by example and be patient. Because you can't force people but you can inspire and empower them. I cant promise a great skill level improvement reform for this community but I can promise you less negativity and more fun in pugs/training; limpeh guarantee.

 

The fact that people still post here is wonderful. It shows you give a shit, no matter how many image macros you paste. So put your one shit (if you can't give two shits) behind the right effort.

 

And remember the 'patience' part. I failed because I raged too much.

[Madman 185]

Disclaimer: Pugs have been and always will be mostly aids

 

Chill the fuck out noobs

[Shounic 143]

i can't see the logic of how it's okay to be an asshole just cuz it's a pug.

 

before all these recent posts, i was thinking about how only newer players get called out for offclassing, but i'm glad it isn't the case.

 

//edited

 

hi, it's simple. I'm trying to say that, basically it's going to take too much effort to be worth trying to fix a problem like this. It's already a lot better to settle for the current quality of "most of us actually try to do well and contribute to the team in a pug" with occasional people who don't care. When you compare AF to mokee you wonder why you should still complain.

 

then here's where you tripped: I mentioned the meta-game because our judgement of what's right and wrong is purely based around a meta, except even the meta is undecided, so how do we know for sure what's right and wrong to do? But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

[Azazel 82]

why is that even our problem honestly? If I will play sniper no matter what and there are no admins around what can you do about it? You want us to enforce rules that can annoy people who play "normally" just to make it harder for someone to be an asshole? Here's the solution: Treat pugs like pugs. Even in NA I promise you there is probably some asshole who will offclass like a nigger.

 

The only real issue I see is how people are so rigid about the meta-game. How do you have the authority to teach people how to play the game even when someone like Pyyyyyyour or Platinum have no answer? The truth is that the way we play works in the current meta-game but you shouldn't be surprised in the future when snipers are so good that one is ran 24/7, how can you blame sud anymore?

 

hi, it's simple. I'm trying to say that, basically it's going to take too much effort to be worth trying to fix a problem like this. It's already a lot better to settle for the current quality of "most of us actually try to do well and contribute to the team in a pug" with occasional people who don't care. When you compare AF to mokee you wonder why you should still complain.

 

then here's where you tripped: I mentioned the meta-game because our judgement of what's right and wrong is purely based around a meta, except even the meta is undecided, so how do we know for sure what's right and wrong to do? But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

 

I think ANYBODY can see a world of difference in what you're saying and how you're saying it in these two posts.

 

Well, to be fair, post number 2 could be a clarification or an expansion on post number 1 after some very fallible points were pointed out.

 

Also, to be fair, hedwig didn't mention anything about "the meta-game" or question your bringing up of "the meta-game".

 

Thus, to be pointing out how she's tripped, just doesn't make any sense.

 

If anything, you've tripped over your own internet feet, rolled around the entire internet track, just to somehow suggest that hedwig's made some sort of mistake.

 

No she didn't. Maybe in her initial interpretation of your post but we've cleared that up already.

 

C'mon man.

 

Don't bring up mokee's man.

 

It's like telling the North Korean's they got it good under them Kim Jong's cos those African kids are starvin' to death man.

 

Doesn't make it better man.

 

vs

 

Now let's get to the real issue.

 

then here's where you tripped: I mentioned the meta-game because our judgement of what's right and wrong is purely based around a meta, except even the meta is undecided, so how do we know for sure what's right and wrong to do? But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

 

Our judgement of right and wrong is based on the meta-game.

 

One of those great epic motherhood statements that are just so fluffy and nice to roll around in like a nice warm blanket of "a statement that is obvious and I say it because I can never be wrong".

 

 

The meta-game is like the "social influence" in tf2, where our infants(new tf2 players) grow up and learn about what is "right and wrong" in society.

 

Such a valid point.

 

However, for somebody that has been playing since 2009-2010(i think, don't take me apart on this one),

 

HERE'S WHERE YOU TRIPPED:

 

The 6v6 meta-game develops as the competitive 6v6 community develops, however it is not UNDECIDED.

 

There can be situational changes, but as long as there are no changes to weapon unlocks, major changes in the meta-game will not occur.

 

If it were that UNDECIDED i'm pretty sure we would have watched plenty of invite level ESEA/ETF2L seasons running pyros/heavies/engineers/snipers/spies to middle.

 

I think it is pretty much established at the moment when it is beneficial to run certain offclasses.

 

Pyro when defending last to nullify ubers/Heavy when defending last to deny jumpers, soak damage/Engineer when defending last to waste uber/Spy during holds to nullify uber disadvantage/Sniper during holds to nullify uber disadvantage

 

And those are "WTFDONG everybody agrees to it" types of situations.

 

Is it UNDECIDED in those situations?

 

IS OUR METAGAME UNDECIDED NOW?

 

Are we REALLY that clueless about whether running engineer to middle is RIGHT or WRONG?

 

I'm anticipating an attempt to turn this around by dictionary definitions of how undecided = not decided yet = can be changed in the near future = it MAY change next time = i am right you are wrong.

 

Let's not go there.

 

The community has been playing 2 soldiers/2 scouts/1 demoman/1 medic for seasons and seasons.

 

Off classing has been situational in the above mentioned ways for seasons and seasons.

 

Nothing is "indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta" NOW.

 

 

But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

 

If anything, new weapon unlocks will start to incite changes into the current meta-game.

 

We have seen how quick-fix changed(arguably disrupted) the metagame for ESEA, and with increasing talks for allowing more weapon unlocks (pyro flare gun/degreaser/axtinguisher), and also Winger for scout, we can begin to expect or suspect more change in our metagame.

 

Before you choose to trip over more of the very flat ground in front of you, please feel free to read more about the "meta-game" you love to bring up.

 

http://forums.steamp...d.php?t=3150047

 

It is actually a pretty good read.

 

- He who has no stable internet at the moment to play tf2 so engages in keyboard warriordom to make his epeen engorge into a gigantic bulging red wiggling nasty-looking button. He would also like to remind everybody that this thread began originally about a very sad and depressed tf2 pugger whom didn't get picked after waiting for 10 mins. I find it very important to remind everybody about this. Pick Bob!

[haluuuuu 56]

then here's where you tripped: I mentioned the meta-game because our judgement of what's right and wrong is purely based around a meta, except even the meta is undecided,

hedwig : shounic u dont make sense shounic : when have i ever?

[Shounic 143]

hedwig : shounic u dont make sense shounic : when have i ever?

 

屌你 how is this wrong

[Shounic 143]

-stuff-

 

we're getting to the point where we're arguing about semantics and word choice....

 

When you mention NK and Africa that doesn't really make sense as a comparison. The issue we're talking about is "whether or not we should try even harder to fix needless off-classing" yes? From my observation, other than SUD, there isn't much needless off-classing anymore. Maybe I'm not playing pugs enough, but it doesn't seem to happen in a case other than SUD. K1 and MEL I've noticed sometimes does that too. So 3 cases. When you compare it to an issue like hunger.... The same logic doesn't really apply does it? My point was that "trying to enforce no needless off-classing is going to be too much trouble for such little gain, you'll probably annoying people who are playing properly if you set really really strict rules and in the end you can't really win, the admins don't really have much other way of dealing with it other than just banning the person / kick." So when I mention mokee, it's simply to juxtaposition two common options people consider. When you want to pug, assuming ceteris paris, one of the first things that will probably influence your decision is the player quality. Generally AF has better quality of players, yes? And generally, Mokee's has lesser quality of players, yes? Well then, assuming off-classing is one of the criterias you use to judge player quality, it's probably true that mokee's pugs will have more needless off-classing, right? I haven't played in mokee recently so I'm just going off what people have established, but assuming that's also true.... Let's look at it again. AF, has relatively less cases of needless off-classing, right? Plus, the three cases I've mentioned, all three of them are above average snipers. So even if needless off-classing happens, it's potentially less of a problem, yes? This is the basis of my point; since most players actually don't needlessly off-class, why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three people? This goes back to "it's probably going to get in the way of things anyways so what's the point?". To put it simply, the fruits of the labor don't seem to cover the cost of the labor, plus the issue doesn't happen often, so you could probably ignore it. let's try use the same sort of logic on a subject like starvation(?). I am not even sure what could be wrong with feeding more people. It could be bad, it could be good. Plus, it's not really something you can ignore. As the government / whatever other position of power above the government, it is your job to ensure everyone is fed, and that's a basic right to life... These people are also getting paid to put in that effort. So you're trying to say that AF, a free service, should also put in as much effort to make sure pugs are good?

 

There's also no point picking at the fact I used the word undecided. The point is that tf2 as an e-sports hasn't been around for as long as something like counter-strike. CS you can say with some confidence that the meta-game will probably never change again. TF2, not so much, yes?

[qjyap 29]

ceteris paris

[Azazel 82]

We're getting to the point where we're arguing about semantics and word choice....

 

Given that meaning/logic/argument/discussion in this format here on a forum can only come from well, "semantics and word choice", I'm pretty sure you're above statement is you somehow trying to absolve yourself from not making any sense.

 

When you don't make sense in a place where you are trying to make a sensible, logical, argument, you basically fail to make ANY salient points.

 

I can see you are putting those skills you learn in school to use here.

 

ceteris paris

 

I didn't even have to catch you first.

 

Unless you've invented some new Latin phrase that refers to the capital of France, OR, I have to do your thinking for you and perhaps suggest you change said phrase to "ceteris paribus" instead.

 

Normally, secondary school economics essays are uninteresting, undemanding of creativity, and most of all, driven by logic(and many graphs) to prove nothing but pre-determined outcomes you've learnt in your textbooks.

 

Little boy, if you want to be uninteresting that's okay. Just make sure you make sense.

 

 

When you want to pug, assuming ceteris paris, one of the first things that will probably influence your decision is the player quality. Generally AF has better quality of players, yes? And generally, Mokee's has lesser quality of players, yes? Well then, assuming off-classing is one of the criterias you use to judge player quality, it's probably true that mokee's pugs will have more needless off-classing, right? I haven't played in mokee recently so I'm just going off what people have established, but assuming that's also true.... Let's look at it again. AF, has relatively less cases of needless off-classing, right? Plus, the three cases I've mentioned, all three of them are above average snipers. So even if needless off-classing happens, it's potentially less of a problem, yes? This is the basis of my point; since most players actually don't needlessly off-class, why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three people? This goes back to "it's probably going to get in the way of things anyways so what's the point?". To put it simply, the fruits of the labor don't seem to cover the cost of the labor, plus the issue doesn't happen often, so you could probably ignore it.

 

Oh god help me out here.

 

I implore ANYONE in asiafortress reading this right now to help interpret this chunk of jibberjabber.

 

Okay I'll try. I'll try.

 

RED - player quality is the variable between AF/Mokee, generally AF>Mokee in player quality

ORANGE - Mokee more needless offclassing than AF

YELLOW - AF has less cases of offclassing

GREEN - Shounic names sud/mel/k1infran (orh hor you name people, orh hor...) as above average snipers.

PURPLE - Rules against offclassing will only really affect these 3 cases. Enforcing rules against offclassing is insurmountable task. You could probably ignore it.

 

First of all, AF player quality varies depending on the time of day (kids, school, afternoons, evenings, you get the picture)

 

Honestly, we SHOULD NOT even make the assumption of player quality in Mokee's or in Asiafortress in the first place.

 

Why?

 

Anyone can join any server during any time of the day.

 

I've seen AF players on Mokee's. I've seen pubbers in AF.

 

Real hard to ceteris paribus this one in the real world interweb.

 

BUT... just to let your ceteris paris arrive in France... let's just ASSUME your premise.

 

The purple portion is what disturbs me the most.

 

If you have not already read Halu's post, he refers to one of your named examples in a situation where players felt that their pugging experience was compromised and 24/7 sniper was a liability.

 

So no, you cannot ignore it.

 

"This is the basis of my point; since most (people) actually don't (steal), why bother trying to enforce and create strict rules just to put off these three (thieves)?"

 

If living in the real world hasn't taught you anything about governing rules, then it is that rules are put into place for the protection and the benefit of the MAJORITY.

 

 

Brain transplant may help you in the near future.

 

Also, while you go on and on about how enforcing rules against offclassing can be "so difficult" (for the lack of a better word since you tend to use confusing language), please explain more.

 

RIGID, across the board rules with no exceptions or clauses littered with protocol and whatnot... that can be hard to implement.

 

How the earlier issue was dealt with by Andrew and Halu, being admins in the server, who observed how shit went down and kungfu kicked the perpetrator into oblivion.

 

Was it really that hard?

 

Responsible admins. That's all it takes. No need for colourful rules, just responsible admins who can make judgement calls and a community that can trust in them.

 

Anyway, a simple 1 line response to your failure to understand why I brought up NK and Africa is sufficient.

 

When you compare it to an issue like hunger.... The same logic doesn't really apply does it? let's try use the same sort of logic on a subject like starvation(?). I am not even sure what could be wrong with feeding more people. It could be bad, it could be good. Plus, it's not really something you can ignore. As the government / whatever other position of power above the government, it is your job to ensure everyone is fed, and that's a basic right to life... These people are also getting paid to put in that effort.

 

It wasn't about starvation, it's about you bringing up a worse scenario vs a bad scenario and saying that there's no need to complain about it.

 

 

Don't take it down the road of no return man... I'm sorry I brought up something you couldn't understand, I really am...

 

These people(governments) are also getting paid to put in that effort. So you're trying to say that AF, a free service, should also put in as much effort to make sure pugs are good?

 

Well, don't be assuming anything I've said. My professional courtesy as trollmeister has been to work mostly off of your quotes and fails, so please let's not be rude shall we?

 

I'm not saying a free service should put in AS MUCH EFFORT as a government.

 

Let's not get into how much effort goes into governments and their countries because we know governing NK, Africa and USA can make a hell of a difference and I'm sure you might not want to jam more information into a head that cannot explain himself in a public forum just yet because you might need a little more time after reading this.

 

I think if you're doing volunteer work at a charity centre (yes I said it. Asiafortress is like a charity center since our admins don't get paid and Natapon pays for our servers), you wouldn't want to do a shit job. I'm not saying the AF guys are doing shit jobs, that's not what I'm saying man!

 

What I'm saying is... just because you are providing a free service doesn't mean you should not go the distance.

 

It just means you are not obligated to.

 

If right now, Halu/Andrew and any other admins who have been policing the servers come here and say that enforcing offclassing rules are not worth it, then we will have some testimony that actually stands for something.

 

On the other hand, Shounic, whom hasn't been doing any enforcing of offclassing rules, comes here to state how said enforcing can be "difficult".

 

Many can even testify to your voice-chat complaints about people on your PUG team being "useless snipers" and not "contributing". But let's not go there.

 

 

We have admins(some) that actually care and are willing to go the distance to enforce rules that could be difficult, but are not obligated to.

 

Life is good

 

then here's where you tripped: I mentioned the meta-game because our judgement of what's right and wrong is purely based around a meta, except even the meta is undecided, so how do we know for sure what's right and wrong to do? But fair enough, the community is indeed starting to favor and stagnate at a certain meta for now.

There's also no point picking at the fact I used the word undecided. The point is that tf2 as an e-sports hasn't been around for as long as something like counter-strike. CS you can say with some confidence that the meta-game will probably never change again. TF2, not so much, yes?

 

Let's get this straight.

 

Undecided in quote 1 - undecided in a sense that you will not know what is right or wrong. In other words, undecided in a sense that nothing is defined and any kind of strategy is plausible because, hey, Platinum and Pyyyyyyour have no answer!

 

Undecided in quote 2 - undecided in a sense that things might change later.

 

Don't try to change positions midway in a forum post. I'm not stupid.

 

I'm anticipating an attempt to turn this around by dictionary definitions of how undecided = not decided yet = can be changed in the near future = it MAY change next time = i am right you are wrong.

 

Am I psychic or what?!

 

 

If anyone is trying to worm their way out of looking stupid by making use of....

 

we're getting to the point where we're arguing about semantics and word choice....

 

It's you.

 

 

There is actually alot of material to pick apart but I'm getting a teensy weeny bit tired of trying to interpret misspelt secondary school economics jargon, rhetorical questions that lead nowhere, and a blatant lack of humour and colourful pictures(because humour is what gets you an A in your essays. true story!).

 

I can only pity the teachers in your school marking those abysmal essays.

 

- I'm sorry for making you look bad Shounic. I really am.

 

[Caldoran 146]

Guys I only have 3GB data per month. 64K warning pls.

 

Agree with the overall message in spammah's post.

 

As long as we have responsible, fair and unbiased admins who are able to clearly justify their actions (or lack thereof in a separate case), I think the situation will improve greatly. In fact, from what I've seen in my limited time playing again, it already has, but I may very well be wrong.

[iridescentFUZZ 178]

If I might be so bold as to request something of utmost importance, I might ask that all of you vote; for me.

 

I will say anything you like so long as you vote for me; there is nothing I cannot promise you.

 

Good morning.

[Bob 64]

what. the. fuck. happened.

[Azazel 82]

If I might be so bold as to request something of utmost importance, I might ask that all of you vote; for me.

 

I will say anything you like so long as you vote for me; there is nothing I cannot promise you.

 

Good morning.

 

i vote for you.

 

make us some curry please.

 

bad offclassers make the world mad.

 

shounic has proven himself challenged in various areas.

 

also, pick bob.

[Bob 64]

If I might be so bold as to request something of utmost importance, I might ask that all of you vote; for me. I will say anything you like so long as you vote for me; there is nothing I cannot promise you. Good morning.

I have no idea what's going on but I'll vote for you ( as long as you stop calling me blob)